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Corporate v. individual Speech

Or more like voting for a party that still values truth and justice.

is there one? i mostly see a bumbling Democratic party trying to find its ass with a spotlight and a Rand McNally. the other party is a ragtag bunch of zombies looking for a brain and following an orange comic book idiot version of Randall Flagg.
 
is there one? i mostly see a bumbling Democratic party trying to find its ass with a spotlight and a Rand McNally. the other party is a ragtag bunch of zombies looking for a brain and following an orange comic book idiot version of Randall Flagg.

That characterization, while a little harsh, of the GOP is fair I grant you.

Where do you see the Democratic party "bumbling" Biden's ability not to get tongue twisted while making speeches it at the very least embarrassing but hardly "bumbling"

Of course the Democratic party covers a wide spectrum of economic and political thought and will contain some differences. Again this is hardly "bumbling"


Say what you mean and give examples.
 
Which individuals?
That depends on who is making the contribution. Employees will join corporate PACs, like those formed by unions. Or the corporation will invest a portion of its assets (with stockholder approval) to a campaign or candidate. Either way, it is the individual making the contribution, even when it comes from corporate assets. In such a case it is the stockholder making the contribution.

Corporations are mech suits for status heads. They amplify power and if not destroyed are immortal.
Your first sentence is certainly true. Corporations are legal constructs. The second sentence assumes they have power to amplify and corporations exist forever, both are not true. Assuming the corporation does not become insolvent, they can be dissolved by statutory operation, order of court, or voluntary action on the part of shareholders.

The wealth they wield often exceeds that of most individuals in the donor class.
I would hope so.

And like the rest of the donor class they invest in candidates that will increase their profits.

And their profits don't necessarily mean what's best for anybody else. Quite the contrary in many cases.
Or what is generally good for their business. I was a contributing member with the NASE for 30 years, and it wasn't always about profit but it was what benefited my business. Why would you think a business need be concerned about anyone else, other than their own business? It isn't like they are a social organization.

Do you really think that they don't expect anything in return from those legislators who spend half their time in office begging them for money? That would be stupid considering that congress does what money wants or doesn't do what money doesn't want. Statistically.

So we can discuss this with the manufactured narrative you used, or we can look at the reality and decide whether money should decide what happens in America or not.
Of course they expect something for their contribution. They would be stupid not too. When you contribute to a candidate do you expect nothing in return? I contribute to a lot of different PACs for the express purpose of them pushing their agenda.
 
That corporation just represents the will of the owners and stockholders.

Well, certainly the will of the board of directors. Whether or not it was also the will of the stockholders/owners remains to be determined at the next shareholder's meeting. That is why most corporations that make political contributions will collect donations from their employees rather than use corporate assets. The board has a fiduciary duty to the stockholders.
 
Since Citizens United, there has been a public controversy over the protections of commercial speech versus individual speech.

The limit of individual speech is basically that one cannot incite violence against another or others or incite a riot or riotous behavior. The basic idea is that an individual should not do harm against another or others, and speech aimed to do physical harm is rightfully regulated.

It has been said that corporate speech can be more heavily regulated. On its face, that may appear to be true. However, usually the commercial speech that is prohibited has been deemed harmful to others. For example, the FCC prohibits curse words and nudity from public broadcast so as not to subject children to such things, the premise being exposure to such things is harmful to children.

It would appear, then, the justification of regulating commercial speech and individual speech is the same. The difference might be said is the potential impact of commercial speech versus individual speech.

And so, that begs the question, why ought the government be allowed to regulate commercial political speech moreso than individual political speech? Corporations are nothing more than a collection of persons who own and operate a concern. How can one differentiate a collection of persons and an individual? Even if one can differentiate, what justifies that differentiation with regard to regulating political speech?

And, before we get into rote responses that money in politics is bad, I would state at the outset that such a sentiment is merely conclusory. I do not accept as axiomatic that money in politics is bad. What specifically about money in politics is bad?

What gets overlooked or misunderstood is that corporations are not some mythical otherworldly entity that exists apparent from society. As you say orporations are just groups of people who have banded together to conduct some form of business jointly. Just as labor unions, professional associations, religious groups are allowed to speak for their members, corporations should be allowed to speak for their shareholders. What is frequently ignored is that about 50% of all households own stocks, e.g. are shareholders, through private investments or retirement/pension plans.
 
Folks incorporate to distance themselves from liability.

So when the corporation screws up they can say "It wasn't me, it was the corporation.

Bit when it comes to using the corporation's money to invest in polititcal campaigns then it's "We ARE the corporation".
Not exactly, corporations are not allowed, by federal law, to donate to a candidate or national party committee. Of course, officials and employees are free to donate as private citizens subject to federal maximums
 
money isn't speech. the decision was incorrect, and needs to be reversed once there are fewer right wingers on the court.

Because if it is, then NO money equals NO speech, and all speech is not free, all speech is transactional.
By that logic, prostitution is legal and so is outright bribery.

But most importantly, Mitt Romney was right...corporations ARE PEOPLE.
SCOTUS seems to say something slightly different...that A corporation is A PERSON.

That is not a subtle difference, the difference is huge.
A corporation can be people but if a corporation is A PERSON then it is a new species of person, made of concrete, steel, glass, unlimited money and power. And it is a potentially immortal species, able to outlive all of the flesh and blood humans that occupy its interior.
 
money isn't speech. the decision was incorrect, and needs to be reversed once there are fewer right wingers on the court.

Try and run an ad on tv without money.
 
There is no line to blur. Individuals can choose to use their own money, or the board of directors can choose to use corporate funds. Of course the board of directors also has a fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders to account for the corporation assets that individuals don't have, but it is still free speech. If stockholders are not happy with the political contributions being made - on behalf of the stockholders - by the board of directors, the board can always be replaced. It is the individual voices of every contributing stockholder when corporations make political contributions. As I said, legal constructs have no voice. They are merely facilitating for individuals.

Corporations ability to donate corporate funds is severely limited.
 
Which individuals?

Corporations are mech suits for status heads. They amplify power and if not destroyed are immortal.

The wealth they wield often exceeds that of most individuals in the donor class.

And like the rest of the donor class they invest in candidates that will increase their profits.

And their profits don't necessarily mean what's best for anybody else. Quite the contrary in many cases.

Do you really think that they don't expect anything in return from those legislators who spend half their time in office begging them for money? That would be stupid considering that congress does what money wants or doesn't do what money doesn't want. Statistically.

So we can discuss this with the manufactured narrative you used, or we can look at the reality and decide whether money should decide what happens in America or not.
Except they are prohibited by federal law of donating to candidates. Minor detail.
 
That depends on who is making the contribution. Employees will join corporate PACs, like those formed by unions. Or the corporation will invest a portion of its assets (with stockholder approval) to a campaign or candidate. Either way, it is the individual making the contribution, even when it comes from corporate assets. In such a case it is the stockholder making the contribution.

Your first sentence is certainly true. Corporations are legal constructs. The second sentence assumes they have power to amplify and corporations exist forever, both are not true. Assuming the corporation does not become insolvent, they can be dissolved by statutory operation, order of court, or voluntary action on the part of shareholders.

I would hope so.

Or what is generally good for their business. I was a contributing member with the NASE for 30 years, and it wasn't always about profit but it was what benefited my business. Why would you think a business need be concerned about anyone else, other than their own business? It isn't like they are a social organization.


Of course they expect something for their contribution. They would be stupid not too. When you contribute to a candidate do you expect nothing in return? I contribute to a lot of different PACs for the express purpose of them pushing their agenda.

Ok. Unless the stockholders are unanimous then its only the will of some represented. And as an investment they expect a return, so that's a problem.

You'll note that I said "destroyed" which covers all of your examples. A reason posted here recently is the business doesn't die with its creators. Functional immortality. And they do amplify the will of the officers/shareholders as the money available is much greater than any of them individually. And its in addition to what they donate personally.

Their doing what's best for their profits is the problem. Because their what they buy with those donations might not be the best for the rest of us. For instance backing politicians who will allow them to poison our water.

Last, when I donate I don't expect a literal reward for doing so. Statistics show that congress acts on the behalf of donors over voters. So they get literal rewards for their donations.

Historically, allowing those who hunger for status, wealth and power, to have whatever they want has never ended well. Their hunger being insatiable ultimately costs everybody dearly.
 
Except they are prohibited by federal law of donating to candidates. Minor detail.

Completely irrelevant. They can spend as much as they like on persuasive messaging which represents multiple multibillion dollar industries in the states.

It works or they wouldn't spend that money.
 
Ok. Unless the stockholders are unanimous then its only the will of some represented. And as an investment they expect a return, so that's a problem.

You'll note that I said "destroyed" which covers all of your examples. A reason posted here recently is the business doesn't die with its creators. Functional immortality. And they do amplify the will of the officers/shareholders as the money available is much greater than any of them individually. And its in addition to what they donate personally.

Their doing what's best for their profits is the problem. Because their what they buy with those donations might not be the best for the rest of us. For instance backing politicians who will allow them to poison our water.

Last, when I donate I don't expect a literal reward for doing so. Statistics show that congress acts on the behalf of donors over voters. So they get literal rewards for their donations.

Historically, allowing those who hunger for status, wealth and power, to have whatever they want has never ended well. Their hunger being insatiable ultimately costs everybody dearly.
See, what you don't get is that profits provide the motivation to deliver quality goods, superior service and cutting edge development. Not just starts a business and becomes a millionaire or billionaire. The failure rate for new business is somewhere in the high ninetieth percentile. Even long-standing corporations are not immune. People don't go through business building because they're "hunger for status, wealth and power", that's a sure road to failure. The drive to provide a quality good or service at a competitive price drives success. Nobody says "oh boy, I'm going to be a billionaire" when the get their first business license.
 
Except they are prohibited by federal law of donating to candidates. Minor detail.

You are referring to 'soft money' which corporations are not allowed to contribute to a candidate. Yes, that's prohibited. But, you're overlooking the 'dark money' donations made by special interests to a Super PAC where they can push all the money they want and not have to disclose it. Dark money is political spending by nonprofit organizations who don't have to disclose their donors. (minor detail there) This is why candidates like Elizabeth Warren will have campaign finance reform as one of her first priorities when she's president.
 
You are referring to 'soft money' which corporations are not allowed to contribute to a candidate. Yes, that's prohibited. But, you're overlooking the 'dark money' donations made by special interests to a Super PAC where they can push all the money they want and not have to disclose it. Dark money is political spending by nonprofit organizations who don't have to disclose their donors. (minor detail there) This is why candidates like Elizabeth Warren will have campaign finance reform as one of her first priorities when she's president.
Actually, I was referring to "hard money" - direct contributions to candidates or party committees.

Here's some good info on who can or cannot donate to PACs

High lights:

Corporations and labor organizations
The Act prohibits corporations and labor organizations from making contributions and expenditures in connection with federal elections.
This prohibition applies to all types of incorporated organizations, except political committees that incorporate only for liability purposes.
The transactions described result in prohibited corporate or labor contributions and therefore must be avoided.
Use of general treasury funds
Corporations and labor organizations may not use their general treasury funds to make contributions to political committees or candidates.
In addition, national banks and federally chartered corporations may not make contributions in connection with any U.S. election—federal, state or local.
 
Isn't this just making larlge corporate donations effectively tax-free, while all grassroots donations are after tax? I haven't looked into it much, may be a silly question.
Political contributions are not tax deductible, that would include contributions to PACs.
 
You are referring to 'soft money' which corporations are not allowed to contribute to a candidate. Yes, that's prohibited. But, you're overlooking the 'dark money' donations made by special interests to a Super PAC where they can push all the money they want and not have to disclose it. Dark money is political spending by nonprofit organizations who don't have to disclose their donors. (minor detail there) This is why candidates like Elizabeth Warren will have campaign finance reform as one of her first priorities when she's president.

Super PACs can only contribute the federal limit of $5,000 to a candidate or candidate committee, regardless of whether some of their donations were from dark money contributers.
 
Moot point - neither exist. :cool:

Why don't the pro-American left or anti-American right not exist ?

What is being "anti-American" and why would anyone oppose it.


Can you give any example of the left wing Anti-America or the right wing ?
 
Actually, I was referring to "hard money" - direct contributions to candidates or party committees.

Here's some good info on who can or cannot donate to PACs

High lights:

According to your link the NRA would be prohibited from contributing to a PAC since the NRA is an incorporated entity. As a matter of fact the NRA has their very own PAC, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA), it is the lobbying arm of the NRA and it manages its political action committee (PAC) and the Political Victory Fund (PVF).

Top recipients of contributions from gun-rights donors
Candidate Office Amount
Cruz, Ted (R-TX)Senate$309,021
McSally, Martha (R-AZ)House$227,928
Scalise, Steve (R-LA)House$132,831
Nunes, Devin (R-CA)House$95,093
Blackburn, Marsha (R-TN)House$85,168
Heller, Dean (R-NV)Senate$76,713
James, John (R-MI)Senate$75,099
Ryan, Paul (R-WI)House$65,347
Scott, Rick (R-FL)Senate$61,752
Hawley, Josh (R-MO)Senate$59,760
Source: OpenSecrets.org
 
According to your link the NRA would be prohibited from contributing to a PAC since the NRA is an incorporated entity. As a matter of fact the NRA has their very own PAC, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA), it is the lobbying arm of the NRA and it manages its political action committee (PAC) and the Political Victory Fund (PVF).

Top recipients of contributions from gun-rights donors
Candidate Office Amount
Cruz, Ted (R-TX)Senate$309,021
McSally, Martha (R-AZ)House$227,928
Scalise, Steve (R-LA)House$132,831
Nunes, Devin (R-CA)House$95,093
Blackburn, Marsha (R-TN)House$85,168
Heller, Dean (R-NV)Senate$76,713
James, John (R-MI)Senate$75,099
Ryan, Paul (R-WI)House$65,347
Scott, Rick (R-FL)Senate$61,752
Hawley, Josh (R-MO)Senate$59,760
Source: OpenSecrets.org

Yes the NRA has it's own PAC as does Planned Parenthood and the NAACP, to name just three of the 4000 plus registered PACs, your point ??
 
Yes the NRA has it's own PAC as does Planned Parenthood and the NAACP, to name just three of the 4000 plus registered PACs, your point ??

My comment was a reply to comment #42, perhaps it would be good for you to go back to that and then you would know what my point is.
 
According to your link the NRA would be prohibited from contributing to a PAC since the NRA is an incorporated entity. As a matter of fact the NRA has their very own PAC, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA), it is the lobbying arm of the NRA and it manages its political action committee (PAC) and the Political Victory Fund (PVF).

Top recipients of contributions from gun-rights donors
Candidate Office Amount
Cruz, Ted (R-TX)Senate$309,021
McSally, Martha (R-AZ)House$227,928
Scalise, Steve (R-LA)House$132,831
Nunes, Devin (R-CA)House$95,093
Blackburn, Marsha (R-TN)House$85,168
Heller, Dean (R-NV)Senate$76,713
James, John (R-MI)Senate$75,099
Ryan, Paul (R-WI)House$65,347
Scott, Rick (R-FL)Senate$61,752
Hawley, Josh (R-MO)Senate$59,760
Source: OpenSecrets.org

Another reason to vote Democrat next year - the NRA supports GOP politicians.
 
According to your link the NRA would be prohibited from contributing to a PAC since the NRA is an incorporated entity. As a matter of fact the NRA has their very own PAC, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA), it is the lobbying arm of the NRA and it manages its political action committee (PAC) and the Political Victory Fund (PVF).

Top recipients of contributions from gun-rights donors
Candidate Office Amount
Cruz, Ted (R-TX)Senate$309,021
McSally, Martha (R-AZ)House$227,928
Scalise, Steve (R-LA)House$132,831
Nunes, Devin (R-CA)House$95,093
Blackburn, Marsha (R-TN)House$85,168
Heller, Dean (R-NV)Senate$76,713
James, John (R-MI)Senate$75,099
Ryan, Paul (R-WI)House$65,347
Scott, Rick (R-FL)Senate$61,752
Hawley, Josh (R-MO)Senate$59,760
Source: OpenSecrets.org

And . . .?
 
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