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The Bill of Rights Turns 230, and What Do We Have to Show for It? Nothing Good

It is also to protect the minority from the majority is it not ?

So it would have to legislate against what the majority wishes to do....and thus be unpopular with the majoity.


I don't like the presence of any religion in the public sphere - especially in schools are courts.

It's often said that the USA was partially set up to protect the minority from the mob rule of the majority.,

If your model were to happen, what would protect the minority of Atheists and their families from Christians ? Would non-Theists have to put up with harmful and hateful messages and interference from Christians ?

Protection from what? Words? Thoughts you don't agree with? This victimizes you? Anything posted on this forum you don't agree with victimizes you? Why are you even on this forum?

What about clothing that you don't like? Or how someone wears their hair? Does this also victimize you? Victimized because the movie didn't end how you wanted it to? Anything and anyone different from you victimizes you for which you need "protection" by the government?
 
You probably have an argument that the militia is a relic, but for the wrong reason. The founding fathers looked to avoid a standing army, which is why military appropriations are only good for 2 years. So, if there is no standing army, there has to be a way to defend the country in case of invasion. The way to accomplish this is through a militia. Militia was historically understood to be all men of fighting age (basically 16 and older). The states regulate the militias, but the congress has the authority to federalize the militias. That is why the regiments in the civil war always had a State’s name in them - because they were federalized militia. Now-a-days the militia consists of the national guard.

Because of the national guard, the historic understanding of militia is largely irrelevant today, plus the fact we have a standing army.

We saw what happens with the lack of a civilian or citizen's militia during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, didn't we?

Most the police ran away. Of those who stayed, they only undertook going door to door taking people's firearms and for some forcibly taking them to the crime/rape death zone: the Colosseum. There was no National Guard. Even the small group that tried to walk out was stopped from crossing a bridge into a neighboring city - the police even open firing on them. Instantly erasing the Bill Of Rights. Denied the right to protect yourself or others.

^ THAT - and other examples - shows exactly how much the government - those in power, those with wealth and status - care about us peasants.

Remember what they did to the illegals who camped outside Pelosi's house? The police whisked them off real fast. In fact, such cities have designated zones where the homeless may and may not be. It isn't in the higher income parts of the city. Not where the elites are. Think Pelosi is protected by guns? By guards? By a wall?

You like to pretend you are one of the elites, don't you? That you, too, live behind a wall with your own security force. That the police will dash to YOUR location if you call and will be stopping any suspicious persons cruising your neighborhood or walking down the street but not really fitting in. It is that you think you are as specially protected as they are? That you are one of them? Or agree that by their wealth and power they have a greater right to be safe from violence and crime? That inherently their lives are of greater value for which they are conveyed a greater right to live safely? Which one is it?
 
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We saw what happens with the lack of a civilian or citizen's militia during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, didn't we?

Most the police ran away. Of those who stayed, they only undertook going door to door taking people's firearms and for some forcibly taking them to the crime/rape death zone: the Colosseum. There was no National Guard. Even the small group that tried to walk out was stopped from crossing a bridge into a neighboring city - the police even open firing on them. Instantly erasing the Bill Of Rights. Denied the right to protect yourself or others.

^ THAT - and other examples - shows exactly how much the government - those in power, those with wealth and status - care about us peasants.

Remember what they did to the illegals who camped outside Pelosi's house? The police whisked them off real fast. In fact, such cities have designated zones where the homeless may and may not be. It isn't in the higher income parts of the city. Not where the elites are. Think Pelosi is protected by guns? By guards? By a wall?

You like to pretend you are one of the elites, don't you? That you, too, live behind a wall with your own security force. That the police will dash to YOUR location if you call and will be stopping any suspicious persons cruising your neighborhood or walking down the street but not really fitting in. It is that you think you are as specially protected as they are? That you are one of them? Or agree that by their wealth and power they have a greater right to be safe from violence and crime? That inherently their lives are of greater value for which they are conveyed a greater right to live safely? Which one is it?

First of all, no, I do not think I am part of the elite. I am a criminal defense attorney and, as such, am fully aware of the power of the government. I also used to be a prosecutor.

I am aware of the abuses of power that can occur. I have witnessed it firsthand. So, I don’t particularly need your conspiratorial lecture to enlighten me.
 
“That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn’t even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television, looking for some direction. There wasn’t even an enemy you could put your finger on.”—Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid’s Tale

It’s been 230 years since James Madison drafted the Bill of Rights—the first ten amendments to the Constitution—as a means of protecting the people against government tyranny, and what do we have to show for it?

Nothing good.

In America today, the government does whatever it wants, freedom be damned.

We can pretend that the Constitution, which was written to hold the government accountable, is still our governing document, but the reality of life in the American police state tells a different story.

The Bill of Rights Turns 230, and What Do We Have to Show for It? Nothing Good – The Future of Freedom Foundation


In America today, the government does whatever it wants, freedom be damned

First of all, the constitution is ONLY as good as the people

It's not the Gov you should fear, it's the majority apathetic citizenry




"The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy."--Montesquieu, Spirit of the laws, 1748
 
Or, they are highly educated about both its history, the subsequent jurisprudence, and how other nations operate. For example, Louis Michael Seidman is a critic of the constitutional worship so often seen in the US. He most certainly has read it; he's a Harvard Law grad who teaches Constitutional Law at Georgetown.

I'd add that there are very few people who seriously advocate for actually abolishing the Constitution. In fact, the point of the article in the OP is a libertarian who whines that we ignore the Constitution and live in a tyranny, mostly because... municipalities enforce zoning laws.
Nobody who has actually read and understands the US Constitution wants to abolish it. Change parts of it perhaps, but not abolish it. In this thread alone there are at least half and dozen morons who have never read the US Constitution but want it abolished just the same. Hell, there are pages of these idiots just arguing that the US is a democracy even when the US Constitution plainly states that it isn't.

Oh, the irony ;) It is often the right-wing that objects to the idea of a "Living Constitution," and insist that we should interpret its provisions exactly the same as when it was ratified -- even though a) they fail to realize how they impose their own interpretations on the document in the process, b) they frequently ignore their own failures to abide by their own originalist injunctions, and c) fail to recognize the substantial disputes between the framers and ratifiers, as well as how many of the important figures of the time wanted it to have some latitude.
Not irony, dishonesty by the anti-American left. Your deliberate lie that the right objects to changing the US Constitution in accordance with Article V is a fine example of that leftist dishonesty. The US Constitution has always had the ability to be changed via Article V. It is just the Democrat scum don't want to be bothered changing the US Constitution as it was intended, instead they would rather deliberately violate it. These leftist scum think that the US Constitution is a "living document" that can be changed to suit their sick and twisted anti-American agenda without having to abide by the document.

Or... Not.

Income inequality, racism, federal deficits and debts, excessive incarceration, terrorism, threats to the environment, an aging population, rising health care costs are not a result of a lack of civics education.
Actually, they are the result of the lack of civics education. It is that civic illiteracy that has voters voting for candidates who make promises they are incapable of keeping. Like presidential candidates who claim they can cut taxes, enact legislation, or any wield any number of powers that they don't actually have.

By the way, not everyone who gets a "basic civics education" will wind up agreeing with you on lots of policies and ideological positions. Well-informed people have very different opinions about many aspects of constitutional law.
If they had a basic education in civics we could at least have an intelligent debate. Which is something that cannot happen in today's environment of civic illiterates.

Again, oh the irony ;) Our system was designed, in no small part, to reflect the opinion of the people you call "morons." There were some safeguards against a "tyranny of the majority;" though we should note that the first 10 amendments were seen by Jefferson as a critical restriction on federal authority, while Madison saw it as a check on the powers of the public expressed via federal legislation. Similarly, Jefferson was a big believer in the idea that the public could do no wrong, while Adams was worried about the elites gaining too much power and influence.

Our system was designed to represent the opinions of ignorant, not necessarily abide by their wishes. Contrary to the ignorant views expressed in this thread, the US was never intended to be a democracy. The very last thing the founders wanted was the tyranny of the majority. Which is why the ONLY place where public elections were allowed in the federal government was for the House of Representatives. The 17th Amendment would change that about a century later, but the US is still a constitutional republic and only a democracy at the most local level.
 
You probably have an argument that the militia is a relic, but for the wrong reason. The founding fathers looked to avoid a standing army, which is why military appropriations are only good for 2 years. So, if there is no standing army, there has to be a way to defend the country in case of invasion. The way to accomplish this is through a militia. Militia was historically understood to be all men of fighting age (basically 16 and older). The states regulate the militias, but the congress has the authority to federalize the militias. That is why the regiments in the civil war always had a State’s name in them - because they were federalized militia. Now-a-days the militia consists of the national guard.

Because of the national guard, the historic understanding of militia is largely irrelevant today, plus the fact we have a standing army.

Actually, "standing army" in the 18th century was not what is meant today by "standing army." During the 18th century a "standing army" was comprised mostly of foreign mercenaries. The English, for example, hired approximately 30,000 German Hessian soldiers to fight the American Revolution. The founding fathers had absolutely no objections to the US having a entirely home-grown permanent military. They merely had objections to hiring foreign troops.

Which is why the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps pre-dates the US Constitution, and was reinstated by Congress after the ratification of the US Constitution. The founders always intended for the US to have a permanent military, just not a foreign one.

By the way, the entire government - not just the military - has to be funded every two years according to the US Constitution. However, in reality every aspect of the federal government is funded every fiscal year. Requiring the military to be funded every two years does not mean that it is not a standing army by today's definition. The military has been in existence for 244 years. Which by any rational definition is as permanent as it gets.
 
Yes indeed. I have no reverence for the U.S. Constitution and no reverence for those who wrote and signed it. Nevertheless, there are parts I like.

I appreciate your honesty.

I disagree with your political philosophy, but I appreciate your honesty.
 
There are 9 Supreme Court Justices

A few times there has been a 5:4 split on a ruling...not one of those justices "misinterpreted" the Constitution in their own mind.

So why is this, is it because the language used to write the Constitution was in 18th century English?

Why can't it be torn up and a 21st century Constitution be written ?





So re-write it so its meaning is inescapable.



There should be as men are born not created. And a child born of poor immigrant laborers gets a more "equal" childbirth and childhood than one born of Manhattan billionaires.

Yes, first place trophies should always go to the most losing team because they feel the worst.
 
I don't wish for them to change it. Just abide by it and to stop misinterpreting it.

Like the 5th Amendment, for example. It's all about the government authority over suspected criminals. But they misinterpret the last line as a means to rob people of the rights to their own land. They call it "eminent domain."

All men are created equal. There's no caveats in that.

Nor is there truth in that. Men are greatly unequal in native talent and character.

Those who appeal to the United States Constitution imply that it has obvious meanings that their opponents are too dishonest to acknowledge or too stupid to recognize. In truth, the Constitution is vaguely written, so people project their values into it. This is why Supreme Court decisions are often sharply divided.

The United States Constitution is not the Absolute Truth. As democracy has spread throughout the world the U.S. Constitution has not been widely copied. The Constitution is nothing more than a loose guideline on how to operate a democratic government.

The Constitution is the last refuge of those who know that their arguments are otherwise untenable and that most of the voters disagree with them.
 
...the Constitution is the last refuge of those who know that their arguments are otherwise untenable and that most of the voters disagree with them.

But it shouldn't be.
It should be clear on what is allowed by both people and government.

So citizen X wants to ban black people from his establishment and the local state law says he can as do 51% of the voters in the town and he state.

Do you not have a problem with that ?
 
But it shouldn't be.
It should be clear on what is allowed by both people and government.

So citizen X wants to ban black people from his establishment and the local state law says he can as do 51% of the voters in the town and he state.

Do you not have a problem with that ?


That is a good question. Years ago I would have said "Yes." Now I am not so sure.

I used to have a casual friend who owned a restaurant. He would sometimes rent his restaurant to a group for a party. Once he told me in private that he had problems with black groups that he did not have with groups of other races. The blacks would be rude to the wait staff. They would pilfer eating utensils. They would tip little or nothing. Once a fight broke out, damaging the restaurant. He had to call the police.

My sister spent a summer waiting at a restaurant. She told me that she had similar experiences with blacks.

My friend the restaurateur told me that if the government did not require him to rent his restaurant to black groups he would not. Can you blame him?

Stereotypes are usually over generalizations of what is really true. Even those who hate Jews do not claim that Jews are stupid. The usual complaint is that Jews are "too bright by half," and that they control everything.

I would probably and reluctantly vote against allowing a restaurant to refuse to serve blacks. Nevertheless, I think a decision like that should be made by the voters and not by the Constitution and by the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution.

During the last ten or so years I have become disenchanted with the civil rights legislation. At the beginning of the civil rights movement it was assumed, with what I now believe to have been insufficient evidence, that when blacks were no longer discriminated against they would behave and perform as well as whites. What happened instead was that black rates of crime and illegitimacy rose. Black academic performance improved little if at all, despite expensive efforts like Head Start and No Child Left Behind. This substantiates the arguments of those who opposed the civil rights legislation when it was debated in Congress.

It is no longer possible to argue from the evidence that the Negro race, considered collectively, is intrinsically equal to the white race. Unfortunately, it has become dangerous to discuss the evidence for innate racial inequality. Race has become an issue where the more one rejects facts that can easily be documented, or at least the implication of those facts, the more enlightened one is seen to be.
 
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That is a good question. Years ago I would have said "Yes." Now I am not so sure.

I used to have a casual friend who owned a restaurant. He would sometimes rent his restaurant to a group for a party. Once he told me in private that he had problems with black groups that he did not have with groups of other races. The blacks would be rude to the wait staff. They would pilfer eating utensils. They would tip little or nothing. Once a fight broke out, damaging the restaurant. He had to call the police.

My sister spent a summer waiting at a restaurant. She told me that she had similar experiences with blacks.

My friend the restaurateur told me that if the government did not require him to rent his restaurant to black groups he would not. Can you blame him?

Stereotypes are usually over generalizations of what is really true. Even those who hate Jews do not claim that Jews are stupid. The usual complaint is that Jews are "too bright by half," and that they control everything.

I would probably and reluctantly vote against allowing a restaurant to refuse to serve blacks. Nevertheless, I think a decision like that should be made by the voters and not by the Constitution and by the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution.

During the last ten or so years I have become disenchanted with the civil rights legislation. At the beginning of the civil rights movement it was assumed, with what I now believe to have been insufficient evidence, that when blacks were no longer discriminated against they would behave and perform as well as whites. What happened instead was that black rates of crime and illegitimacy rose. Black academic performance improved little if at all, despite expensive efforts like Head Start and No Child Left Behind. This substantiates the arguments of those who opposed the civil rights legislation when it was debated in Congress.

It is no longer possible to argue from the evidence that the Negro race, considered collectively, is intrinsically equal to the white race. Unfortunately, it has become dangerous to discuss the evidence for innate racial inequality. Race has become an issue where the more one rejects facts that can easily be documented, or at least the implication of those facts, the more enlightened one is seen to be.

I can sympathize with your friend.

I would demand a deposit and ban individuals.

These "black groups" were they unique or affiliated to a church or other organization ?
Your friend has a good reason not to book a group he thinks will cause trouble - and has evidence. I'd council him to discuss it with his lawyer.


I think you can distinguish a group from an individual.
 
Nobody who has actually read and understands the US Constitution wants to abolish it.
Incorrect. Aside from my already citing examples to the contrary (and there being several in this thread), the implication that understanding the US Constitution magically makes someone agree with it is downright absurd.


Hell, there are pages of these idiots just arguing that the US is a democracy even when the US Constitution plainly states that it isn't.
:roll:

Try again.

Screen Shot 2019-09-14 at 3.08.52 PM.jpg

The United States is definitely a democracy. It simply is not a direct democracy.

We should also note that "democracy" and "republic" are not mutually exclusive.


Your deliberate lie that the right objects to changing the US Constitution in accordance with Article V is a fine example of that leftist dishonesty.
Wow, talk about lying! I made no such claim whatsoever. You just have no idea what you're talking about.

Those of us who have actually studied constitutional law know that [a] living Constitution is one that evolves, changes over time, and adapts to new circumstances, without being formally amended.

Originalism is the primary alternative interpretive philosophy to that of a "living constitution." Since you probably don't know what that means, look it up.

So, that is two major terms relevant to this discussion that you don't actually understand. Impressive.


It is just the Democrat scum don't want to be bothered changing the US Constitution as it was intended, instead they would rather deliberately violate it.
:roll:

As Seidman points out, everyone -- left and right -- views the "other side" as violating the Constitution. What you view as legitimately constitutional, someone else may well see as a violation, and vice versa. If you had even a passing familiarity with American jurisprudence, or the arguments presented to the courts, you'd know that.

Strike three.


Actually, they are the result of the lack of civics education. It is that civic illiteracy that has voters voting for candidates who make promises they are incapable of keeping. Like presidential candidates who claim they can cut taxes, enact legislation, or any wield any number of powers that they don't actually have.
:roll:

Income inequality is exacerbated by tax policies that favor the wealthy; by top executives tilting pay in their favor; and by the rise of rentier class, especially in finance. That won't be cured by learning that each state gets two Senators.

Racism cannot be cured by everyone reading Article I.

Federal deficits and debts are not the result of people failing to understand the Constitution. We've had thousands of elected representatives, and millions of voters, who understand the Constitution and still want the policies that result in deficits and debts. And all that spending and those tax breaks are constitutional. (In fact, Article I Section 8 states that Congress is empowered "to borrow Money on the credit of the United States."

The list goes on. The bottom line is that unless "civics lesson" is Glitch code for "brainwashing," civics classes will not magically make everyone agree with you.
 
The founding fathers had absolutely no objections to the US having a entirely home-grown permanent military.
BZZT wrong. "Standing army" never referred exclusively to foreign mercenaries, it referred to a permanent domestic military force. Numerous participants in the Constitution Convention explicitly rejected the idea of having a permanent domestic army, and preferred militias; this was all very openly discussed during the Constitutional Convention. Notes of which, by the way, some of us have actually read.

That's why Article I, Section 8 has so many references to the militias, as well as the following limit on a federally funded army, stipulating that Congress had the power:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years

That's the third term where you are using a completely wrong and apparently self-constructed definition. Did you fail high school civics or something...?


By the way, the entire government - not just the military - has to be funded every two years according to the US Constitution.
Oh, really? Where does the Constitution stipulate that? Please quote the relevant passage -- and then explain why Article I, Section 8 explicitly restricted Congress to 2 years of military appropriations.


The military has been in existence for 244 years.
lol... Close, but no cigar.

The Continental Army disbanded in 1783 after the Treaty of Paris, specifically because... wait for it... many politicians at the time feared a permanent domestic army. Washington -- who was a proponent of standing armies (not in your twisted wrong definition of the term, but the correct one as a "permanent domestic professional military") had to raise a militia to put down the Whiskey Rebellion. The Legion of the United States was formed in 1791 as a permanent army.

We should note that the standing army was repeatedly put on a diet, and shrank to very small numbers after the War of 1812 and for many years before the Civil War. I.e. the fear of a standing army persisted for decades after the Revolutionary War ended.
 
Incorrect. Aside from my already citing examples to the contrary (and there being several in this thread), the implication that understanding the US Constitution magically makes someone agree with it is downright absurd.

:roll:

Try again.

View attachment 67263759

The United States is definitely a democracy. It simply is not a direct democracy.

We should also note that "democracy" and "republic" are not mutually exclusive.



Wow, talk about lying! I made no such claim whatsoever. You just have no idea what you're talking about.

Those of us who have actually studied constitutional law know that [a] living Constitution is one that evolves, changes over time, and adapts to new circumstances, without being formally amended.
So much for your civics education. Or rather the lack of it. Another fine example of someone who has never bothered to read the US Constitution, and I serious doubt you could comprehend it if you did.
 
BZZT wrong. "Standing army" never referred exclusively to foreign mercenaries, it referred to a permanent domestic military force. Numerous participants in the Constitution Convention explicitly rejected the idea of having a permanent domestic army, and preferred militias; this was all very openly discussed during the Constitutional Convention. Notes of which, by the way, some of us have actually read.
No, it didn't, and I never said anything about armies being exclusively foreign mercenaries. That is a deliberate lie you manufactured. The overwhelming majority of the troops that constituted a "standing army" in England and other nations was comprised of foreign mercenaries, but not all of them. If they rejected the idea of having permanent domestic army, then why did Congress reinstate the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps after the US Constitution was ratified? These were part of the permanent domestic military that predates the US Constitution. It also demonstrates that you are completely full of it and have no clue what you are talking about.
 
I can sympathize with your friend.

I would demand a deposit and ban individuals.

These "black groups" were they unique or affiliated to a church or other organization ?
Your friend has a good reason not to book a group he thinks will cause trouble - and has evidence. I'd council him to discuss it with his lawyer.


I think you can distinguish a group from an individual.

My friend just said they were black groups. I doubt they knew what the inside of a church looked like.
 
So much for your civics education. Or rather the lack of it....
And yet, I'm not the one getting basic terms wrong. lol

Oh, and where does the Constitution state that "the entire government - not just the military - has to be funded every two years"? Don't be shy. Show us your expertise.


Another fine example of someone who has never bothered to read the US Constitution, and I serious doubt you could comprehend it if you did.
lol

I've read it, I've studied constitutional law, and the Federalist Papers, and the Constitutional Convention notes, and multiple histories, etc etc.


No, it didn't, and I never said anything about armies being exclusively foreign mercenaries.
You said, and I quote: "The founding fathers had absolutely no objections to the US having a entirely home-grown permanent military. They merely had objections to hiring foreign troops."

That is flat-out wrong. They objected to permanent armies. Anyone with even a basic understanding of American history should know that. And yet, you do not.


The overwhelming majority of the troops that constituted a "standing army" in England and other nations was comprised of foreign mercenaries, but not all of them.
Incorrect.

Mercenaries were used at various times throughout Europe's history, and there are some examples (notably Italy in the 15th century) where mercenaries were heavily used. However, it is ludicrous to suggest that was the case all throughout Europe. How would that even work? Did England hire German troops to fight France, and then France hired Italians to fight the English, while the Germans hired English troops to fight the Russians? lol

It is also hilarious that you know there were 30,000 Hessians fighting in the US -- and somehow failed to mention that there were over 55,000 Red Coats. Or that in 1778, the entire British Army comprised of 121,000 men, of whom only 24,000 were foreigners.

And of course, there is the aforementioned convention notes, which I'm guessing you've never read. There are multiple objections to a standing army, and at no point is it because of the presence of foreign troops. There is also Federalist No. 46, in which Madison writes:

Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.

Madison wasn't worried about Hessians. He wanted to make sure that any federal standing army would be too weak to defeat state militias.

Or, we have Henry Knox's letter to George Washington in 1790. You, uh, do know who Knox is, right...?

Whoever seriously and Candidly estimates the power of discipline and the tendency of military habits, will be Constrained to Confess, that whatever may be the efficacy of a standing army in war, it cannot in peace be considered as friendly to the rights of human nature.

Knox wasn't worried about condottieri. There was no mention of mercenaries. He was concerned that a standing army could suppress the public.


If they rejected the idea of having permanent domestic army, then why did Congress reinstate the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps after the US Constitution was ratified?
lol

Again: The Continental Army was disbanded after the Treaty of Paris. That's just a fact. Look it up.

Again: Not everyone was worried about standing armies (at least, small ones), e.g. Washington and Hamilton believed that a standing army would be necessary. Even so, there was enough resistance to a standing army that troop sizes were kept very small. It took decades, and multiple military engagements, for most Americans to begin to accept a large, powerful standing military.

Again: The irony of you proclaiming superior knowledge, while making mistakes about basic facts, is incredibly rich.
 
My friend just said they were black groups. I doubt they knew what the inside of a church looked like.

You mean like a wedding party ?

I guess customize the price list to more than cover breakages and to cover gratuity

Get a sizable deposit to cover broken/missing items subsequent cleaning.

Does your friend judge the group by whoever does the booking ?
 
You mean like a wedding party ?

I guess customize the price list to more than cover breakages and to cover gratuity

Get a sizable deposit to cover broken/missing items subsequent cleaning.

Does your friend judge the group by whoever does the booking ?

My friend probably thought that charging every group a large enough deposit to cover the damage blacks cause would discourage civilized groups from renting his apartment. It would have been a lot easier for him to simply have a written policy of not renting to black groups.
 
My friend probably thought that charging every group a large enough deposit to cover the damage blacks cause would discourage civilized groups from renting his apartment. It would have been a lot easier for him to simply have a written policy of not renting to black groups.

Not really as that violates the law.
 
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