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Our Timidity is Killing the Constitution

I think, my friend, you need to check your spellchecker. The second paragraph did not come out the way you intended.

The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials, such as perjury of oath. Thus, Democrats are all impeachable given that they take the oath of office wherein they pledge to preserve and protect Constitution when they in truth they are opposed to basic principle of Constitution ie limited government or freedom from liberal govt. Do you understand?
 
The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials, such as perjury of oath. Thus, Democrats are all impeachable given that they take the oath of office wherein they pledge to preserve and protect Constitution when they in truth they are opposed to basic principle of Constitution ie limited government or freedom from liberal govt. Do you understand?

No

Nowhere in the Constitution does it advocate limited government. Indeed the Constitution doesn't advocate or ban any size of government.

The Constitution promotes liberal values in government though.
 
No

Nowhere in the Constitution does it advocate limited government.

Strictly limited govt is ensured by limiting govt to only the enumerated powers.

This is something a child can understand.

Madison wrote it:

James Madison: "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."

James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."

68)
 
Here’s the thing, your argument assumes more than merely not appointing FEC commissioners. It assumes he has violated election laws and, because of that reason, is leaving the FEC feckless. That would obviously be corrupted action.
I think you misperceive my point. Failure to appoint FEC Commissioners is, in and of itself, a failure to "faithfully execute the laws", regardless of corrupt intent. By doing so, he has completely thwarted the intent of Congress in creating the FEC in the first place, rendering the agency a legal nullity. This is analogous to Nixon's efforts to thwart Congress' express intent by "impounding" (refusing to spend) appropriated funds. That resulted in both the Supreme Court decision in Train v. City of New York and the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. The principles undergirding the Train decision might also apply to Trump's reallocation of appropriated funds from military construction to his vanity wall project were a court inclined to actually address the question.
 
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As I indicated earlier, because of spellcheck failure, I couldn't make out your intention in the previous quote, I can only address this point here:
It is purely within the executive function to nominate executive officers. Congress cannot force the executive to fill his cabinet. They just do not have that authority.
I disagree, in substance. While I agree that Congress cannot directly force the executive to fill his cabinet, they can (and should), however, impeach him for failing to perform his constitutional duty by doing so. Deliberately taking actions to make government agencies, and by extension, the government itself, non-functional, he is failing to fulfill his oath. That failure is impeachable.
 
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Strictly limited govt is ensured by limiting govt to only the enumerated powers.

This is something a child can understand.

Madison wrote it:

James Madison: "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."

James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."

OK but that doesn't limit the size of the government....does a youthful mind understand that.

The size of the budget (a taxes to raise such a budget) DOES determine the size of the government.


Are you under some impression the recent US governments have exceeded their "enumerated" powers ?


If so which US government in recent history did not exceed them ?
 
OK but that doesn't limit the size of the government..

if the govt exercised only the enumerated powers as described by Madison the govt would be 1% the size of today's government. IT would be free of liberalism, the curse human civilization
 
Are you under some impression the recent US governments have exceeded their "enumerated" powers ?

obviously yes this is the basic premise of the conservative libertarian Madisonian American philosophy. This is why liberals not conservatives spied for Hitler and Stalin.

Once again your first lesson in American History:

Madison: "The former [ie the enumerated powers of the federal govt ] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."
 
While I agree that Congress cannot directly force the executive to fill his cabinet, they can (and should), however, impeach him for failing to perform his constitutional duty by doing so.

Totally dumb!!! liberal legal scholars have 100 reasons to impeach Trump and that is not one of them. It excites nobody. How can you be so out of touch???
 
...if the govt exercised only the enumerated powers as described by Madison the govt would be 1% the size of today's government. IT would be free of liberalism, the curse human civilization...

Really what NON enumerated powers is the US governments exercising and accounting for 99% of its size by your count ?

..obviously yes this is the basic premise of the conservative libertarian Madisonian American philosophy. This is why liberals not conservatives spied for Hitler and Stalin....

See above and account for the 99% of the US government's size according to your count

Btw was Charles Lindbergh a "liberal" ?


...once again your first lesson in American History...

How can you get your FIRST lesson in US history "ONCE AGAIN" ?



...Madison: "The former [ie the enumerated powers of the federal govt ] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."

So ? [the bracket betrays your coping & pasting a meaningless quote]

What powers has the US government tyrannically seized that make up 99 per cent of its size.


...Totally dumb!!! liberal legal scholars have 100 reasons to impeach Trump and that is not one of them. It excites nobody. How can you be so out of touch???


You still claim Hitler and Stalin were liberals and call other posters "totally dumb"

Trump is guilty of breaches of his official power but not big enough or clear enough to warrant impeachment - which is always a last resort
With a Republican senate and a presidential election next year, impeachment is a waste of time and counter-productive respectively.
 
Really what NON enumerated powers is the US governments exercising and accounting for 99% of its size by your count ?
.

SS, Medicare, Medcaid, wefare, food stamps, etc etc
 
[the bracket betrays your coping & pasting a meaningless quote]

Why would you say Madison's quote is meaningless when he wrote the Constitution??? and it produced the greatest country in human history?? See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance??
 
You still claim Hitler and Stalin were liberals and call other posters "totally dumb"
.

Why do you think our liberals spied for them? Have you read "Useful Idiots" for a complete list of liberals who spied for them and admired them??
 
SS, Medicare, Medcaid, wefare, food stamps, etc etc

And where does the US Constitution say what a government can or cannot spend the tax dollars Congress legally authorized it to collect ?


"SECTION 8. Clause 1. The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."




Power to Tax and Spend :: Article I. Legislative Department :: US Constitution Annotated :: Justia




...why would you say Madison's quote is meaningless when he wrote the Constitution?

Because it proves nothing.

Congress is allowed to collect taxes and duties and spend it as it likes - including medicare


What powers has the US government tyrannically seized that make up 99 per cent of its size by your count ?



...why do you think our liberals spied for them? Have you read "Useful Idiots" for a complete list of liberals who spied for them and admired them?


You still post that Hitler and Stalin were "liberals"

You ignored Charles Lindbergh
 
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And where does the US Constitution say what a government can or cannot spend the tax dollars Congress legally authorized it to collect ?

for 8th time: the enumerated powers severely limit what federal govt can do and for what it can collect taxes. 1+1=2
 
for 8th time: the enumerated powers severely limit what federal govt can do and for what it can collect taxes. 1+1=2

No it doesn't

Read the Constitution, it does not state what congress can and cannot spend the money it collects in taxes on.

Section 8, clause 1.


Oh and why are you so silent of that famous "liberal" Charles Lindbergh ?

Oh and you've still to account for what powers (and expenditure) the US government tyrannically seized that make up 99 per cent of its size by your count ?
 
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This is a good discussion. I have to concede that good behavior and high crimes and misdemeanors were both used by the framers, so there must be some difference in meaning, although I'm not sure that one is stricter than the other in practice, given the history of the phraseology both before and after ratification, and its use in actual impeachment proceedings.

I would also agree (and have never argued otherwise) that Congress should not impeachment willy-nilly, but not that failure to appoint is not an impeachable failing. It clearly is. Here's why: legislative schemes frequently limit discretion to the highest official of an agency - which is often why they require Senate confirmation. Failure to appoint can render an entire office/agency non-functional. A good example is the current vacancies at the FEC. I think we can acknowledge that the function of the FEC is pretty vital to a functioning democracy and that the sitting President has engaged in behavior that at least arguably violates election law. Is that failure to nominate not directly related to corrupt intent and and failure to faithfully execute the laws? Is that not impeachable behavior? Is it not more so when the same failure extends to a number of (at least to Congress) vital functions (like DHS, Defense, Interior, State?). It's not incompetence at play (although not conceding that is not a valid basis for impeachent), but failure to faithfully execute the laws, deliberately.

but not that failure to appoint is not an impeachable failing. It clearly is. Here's why: legislative schemes frequently limit discretion to the highest official of an agency - which is often why they require Senate confirmation. Failure to appoint can render an entire office/agency non-functional. A good example is the current vacancies at the FEC.

The possibly strongest argument from the statements above in favor of impeachment because of a failure to appoint an agency administrator is when there is a legislative scheme limiting decision making power to the agency administrator. This also means that for some agency’s, there is no proper acting agency administrator vested with “discretion.”

Where an agency does lawfully have an acting administrator of an agency, a condition that is the result of a vacancy by the preceding appointed administrator, and the acting administrator has the same discretion or substantially the same discretion as the preceding appointed administrator, and the agency is functioning, then the propriety for impeachment by failure to appoint is lacking. After all, you’ve related the poisonous pill of non-functioning to lack of an appointed agency administrator, in which the discretion of the agency is vested in this appointed “highest official” of the agency. This infers non-functioning of the agency is a result of the decision making person not being appointed to make decisions, paralyzing the agency.

The harm is an agency not properly functioning as a result of the necessary decision making person not being appointed to thereby make decisions for the agency. The use of the word “can” result in such a harm is problematic, as the harm, never materializing, or no showing of the harm imminently materializing, is worthy of impeachment.

To preclude something that can happen, it is necessary to remove the factor or event that can bring about the undesirable result. Hence, your argument implies that for an agency to avoid possibly not functioning because of a vacancy of he appointed agency administrator who is solely vested with discretion, an appointment is necessary to avoid the possibility of non-function. But is this true? Isn’t it true that presently agencies fitting your description are functioning without that administrator who is solely vested with discretion? Aren’t there enough regulations, guidelines, hierarchy, etcetera, for the agency to continue to function with such an administrator?




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I think you misperceive my point. Failure to appoint FEC Commissioners is, in and of itself, a failure to "faithfully execute the laws", regardless of corrupt intent. By doing so, he has completely thwarted the intent of Congress in creating the FEC in the first place, rendering the agency a legal nullity. This is analogous to Nixon's efforts to thwart Congress' express intent by "impounding" (refusing to spend) appropriated funds. That resulted in both the Supreme Court decision in Train v. City of New York and the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. The principles undergirding the Train decision might also apply to Trump's reallocation of appropriated funds from military construction to his vanity wall project were a court inclined to actually address the question.

First, the decision of Train v City of New York may not be analogous to your FEC example. A pivotal fact in Train v NYC was the statutory language left no discretion with the President to decide how much money was to be disbursed. I’m not sure the FEC statute has similar language leaving the President with no discretion concerning appointments (maybe it does, I haven’t yet looked.) Regardless, the FEC is not a “legal nullity.”

And failure to “faithfully execute” a statute is not, per se, an impeachable offense. Trump, refusing to enforce 40 U.S.C. §8103(b)(2) against a person who “willfully” injured several “shrubs” by purposefully mowing over them. Now, you may argue the potential harms aren’t the same where the potential harm from a non-functional FEC is different than the shrub statute. Fine. But the harm shouldn’t be presumed to exist, the harm needs to be palpable, and shown to be worthy of impeachment.


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No it doesn't
Read the Constitution, it does not state what congress can and cannot spend the money it collects in taxes on.

If true then the Constitution would allow the govt to collect taxes for Nazi and Communist purposes. See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?
 
Oh and why are you so silent of that famous "liberal" Charles Lindbergh ?

dear, how does he relate to our subject???????????????????????????????????????????????
 
Oh and you've still to account for what powers (and expenditure) the US government tyrannically seized that make up 99 per cent of its size by your count ?

eg Social Security Medicare Medicaid etc etc
 
First, the decision of Train v City of New York may not be analogous to your FEC example. A pivotal fact in Train v NYC was the statutory language left no discretion with the President to decide how much money was to be disbursed. I’m not sure the FEC statute has similar language leaving the President with no discretion concerning appointments (maybe it does, I haven’t yet looked.) Regardless, the FEC is not a “legal nullity.”
The operative word, of course, is "analogous". I don't disagree that the statute in Train was specific, but the concept is certainly the same. Hence, "analogous." Additionally, the appointment provisions of the FEC statute are quite specific, and the agency is intended to be an independent regulatory body (for this very reason). As such, the statute specifies that "no more than three Commissioners can represent the same political party, and at least four votes are required for any official Commission action. This structure was created to encourage nonpartisan decisions." FEC Leadership and Structure. The statute is available here. The point, really, is that by keeping the Commission under a quorum it is effectively unmade, although the agency continues to exist.
52 U.S.C. §30106 (c): Voting requirements; delegation of authorities
All decisions of the Commission with respect to the exercise of its duties and powers under the provisions of this Act shall be made by a majority vote of the members of the Commission. A member of the Commission may not delegate to any person his or her vote or any decisionmaking authority or duty vested in the Commission by the provisions of this Act, except that the affirmative vote of 4 members of the Commission shall be required in order for the Commission to take any action in accordance with paragraph (6), (7), (8), or (9) of section 30107(a) of this title or with chapter 95 or chapter 96 of title 26.
Those cited provisions include: (6) to initiate (through civil actions for injunctive, declaratory, or other appropriate relief), defend (in the case of any civil action brought under section 30109(a)(8) of this title) or appeal any civil action in the name of the Commission to enforce the provisions of this Act and chapter 95 and chapter 96 of title 26, through its general counsel;

(7) to render advisory opinions under section 30108 of this title;

(8) to develop such prescribed forms and to make, amend, and repeal such rules, pursuant to the provisions of chapter 5 of title 5, as are necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act and chapter 95 and chapter 96 of title 26; and

(9) to conduct investigations and hearings expeditiously, to encourage voluntary compliance, and to report apparent violations to the appropriate law enforcement authorities.

And failure to “faithfully execute” a statute is not, per se, an impeachable offense. Trump, refusing to enforce 40 U.S.C. §8103(b)(2) against a person who “willfully” injured several “shrubs” by purposefully mowing over them. Now, you may argue the potential harms aren’t the same where the potential harm from a non-functional FEC is different than the shrub statute. Fine. But the harm shouldn’t be presumed to exist, the harm needs to be palpable, and shown to be worthy of impeachment.
Again, I don't disagree. In this instance, however, that harm is clearly "palpable and clearly shown to be worthy of impeachment." Presumption is not required, it is provable (see, conviction of Michael Cohen). This is part of a pattern by this President, as noted earlier (consider the entire Department of Homeland Security) but in the particular circumstance of the FEC is being undertaken to protect the President himself from investigation and potential impeachment and prosecution. (By the way, if the President had "willfully" injured several "shrubs" in violation of a statute, he could, legitimately, be impeached for that, if it was determined that his willful behavior was detrimental to the nation and beyond his constitutional authority. High Crimes and Misdemeanors incorporates the higher standard expected of the Chief Executive. If that behavior would be deemed adequately detrimental, goodbye Mr. Chips.)
 
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if it was determined that his willful behavior was detrimental to the nation and beyond his constitutional authority.

liberal submoronic as usual!! by that standard anybody could be impeached at any time!!

In truth all liberal office holders can be impeached for breach of oath. They take an oath to defend Constitution when in reality they oppose Constitution and seek to destroy it. They are not originalists who care about its original meaning, but rather communists 100% opposed to the freedom it seeks to protect.
 
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