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How have we been wrong for so long and no one has said anything.

jimbo said:
Categorically speaking, we need the EC now more than ever. Without it three or 4 cities would elect the President and VP.
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Ignorant bull crap.
How do you come up with such drivel? Have you ever tried to think through this talking point?

That would make an independent such as Trump an impossibility.
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:lamo:lamo:lamo Which planet did you say you are from?
 
Prof_Lunaphiles said:
Time to awaken, and do what???

Order corrective amendments???

Reorder the charter system???

Do you have any directive samples to present for review, or are you suggesting that someone else generate the corrective legislation???

Can't you see the next step in the process?

You think all you have to do is yell and scream there is a problem, and somehow that is going to prompt the people who have the power, or know how, are going to then commence working on generating a solution to the problem you describe???

Wake up. You are the epitome of why there is a perceived prejudice against black people - you think complaining is the solution.
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I said, and I say again... the element of "debate and discussion" is what helps us as a people look at, learn about and understand, the aspects that "we as a society" must look at to make the determinations, as to how to frame our objectives, and develop a cohesive stragety to achieve them. All of us, should have had enough of "forced indoctrination based on things that we as a people, in general have been generally usurped, by those who chose an agenda to do so.

You want an idea... I can give you many.... One, we need to re-introduce the principles of Civics Educations as it relates to a Democracy, that has a Republic form of Representative Governance, We need to re-lean how to educate our society, with a premise and basis of "equality in accessibility, and equality in opportunity options.... Here's an idea that can help many.... and in doing so, help our systems and our society....

#2 Helping Young People with Education

#3 Poverty and Blight is a Crime Creating Condition

#4 The Cycle of Containment - We As A Society Must Break The Cycle

We as American People have much work to do... and equally so... does other nation in the world.... The World Of Society Advances, just not at the pace we'd imagine to want... The nature of the human being.. has many things to contend... from the multitude of factions of Religious, to the forms of Governance, to the Individual Agenda of Persons, and compound that with the element of money and greed..... among some of the many things that is involved in what is the world of society and the conditions and situations that encircles mankind.
 
Prof_Lunaphiles said:
Time to awaken, and do what???

Order corrective amendments???

Reorder the charter system???

Do you have any directive samples to present for review, or are you suggesting that someone else generate the corrective legislation???

Can't you see the next step in the process?

You think all you have to do is yell and scream there is a problem, and somehow that is going to prompt the people who have the power, or know how, are going to then commence working on generating a solution to the problem you describe???

Wake up. You are the epitome of why there is a perceived prejudice against black people - you think complaining is the solution.
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You offer and present nothing but your cynicism and ridicule and you think that makes you elevated in your mind.... you are riding the borderline of what makes bullies. You may have crossed that line in your life, but I'm not of any great interest to know. [/I]
 
RealityNow said:
Article II of the Constitution:



If this were held true and done as prescribed... then the President would not have any say in who is Vice President!!!!! It will be the voice of the people, who are represented through the voice of the Electors.... as the person having the second highest number of Electoral Votes would be elected as Vice President.

It this were to be does as prescribed, we'd not have a system where the President and Vice President are generally of the same party. Then, we may get to become and have a system where we have less of a Adversarial Partisan Maddening within our Governance Systems.... We would also stand firm on the principle that the President Presides and Make Decisions based on "Advise and Consent" as was originally laid out in Article II.

SECTION 4
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

America was not of design to give "any person" the powers of a Dictator!!!
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Good grief. That is not what they intended or what we system has produced.

But consider the organized and deliberate attempt at a coup of a sitting President that we have witnessed for more than two years now. If Hillary was Vice President, the without conscience radical left would already be using guns, knives, explosives to take out the President.
 
Amelia said:
Sigh. The OP is simultaneously arguing that we're wrong for not electing presidents and vice presidents in the former very undemocratic way, and wrong for not being democratic in an ultra-modern information age way. Simultaneously mocking us for our alleged ignorance of Article II while exposing his ignorance of Amendment XXII.




/unsubscribed
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Maybe you should read Amendment XXII again.... it is discussing "term limits"....
 
RealityNow said:
Maybe you should read Amendment XXII again.... it is discussing "term limits"....
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Excuse me. A typo. Amendment XII. I hope that you finally figured out what the amendment was.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Good grief. That is not what they intended or what we system has produced.

But consider the organized and deliberate attempt at a coup of a sitting President that we have witnessed for more than two years now. If Hillary was Vice President, the without conscience radical left would already be using guns, knives, explosives to take out the President.
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AlbqOwl said:
Good grief. That is not what they intended or what we system has produced.

But consider the organized and deliberate attempt at a coup of a sitting President that we have witnessed for more than two years now. If Hillary was Vice President, the without conscience radical left would already be using guns, knives, explosives to take out the President.
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Think in terms of "Integrity"... that's what the design and origin of the Constitution was founded to embody. It takes an educated society that respect the dignity of the principles of the Declarations of Independence, and the values of the Preamble, and the Integrity of the Constitution..... to Respect Our System....

We as a society must in our future overcome the "savagery" in both mentality and conduct... then we can become a society that respects the "integrity" of our systems.

Power Mad People (as in greed driven tyranny, or vain power mad dictatorships)... was not what the origins of the design for the Nation was about, nor was it the design model for nor of what is the Presidency... it is about responsibility... and often times people misinterpret responsibility to focus on the element of "power", in the vain sense of the use of the word power.

We are not yet, the society of the Civility that we must become... to see and live the true realism of the beauty and grace that Democracy can make for us as a nation and a society of people.

We've long been a nation struggling with "educating the population".... in some areas of society, there is still levels of illiteracy in general, and illiteracy of context to levels of incapability of interpretative understanding. We have a long history of class division, race division, monetary divisions and many other divisions, not to exclude the vast array of religious factions among the factors... all indicating that we as a society, may have come far and done much, but we have so much further to go, and we have to further our learning in doing do so. When we accept that truism.. then we make positive steps in doing so. Ancient societies thought themselves to be so advanced and evolved, that they did not continue trying to become better... they took much for granted and descended into their own preparations for their own demise.

People should look at the world... and the long history of nations that have longevity far extending past that of the United States... and still they are evolving, some fall back one step for every two steps they thought they made forward and then there are the 'forces" within society of the world, that is filled with challenges unto and upon and against one another.... When WE understand that we too are a struggling nation... and learn to face our struggles as a unified people, rather than riding on the haughitness of thinking we are supreme. When the realism within the world, continue to show us that we are not... We like to deny far too much, in self deluding ourselves that we are the greatest that can be ..... and that is the force and source that weakens us even more so... than we are willing to acknowledge and become aware of.... We talk human rights, but can't eradicate racist ignorance, monetary measured classicism, and religious aims of factions seeking autocratic like dominance, that does not respect the equality in religious freedom of other religious to exist with equal rights to exist.

We still think .. Money is the only answer'... and if it were, we've already lost.. because we are $22 Trillion in debt... far greater than the debt of any nations, and of a level of debt that is greater than combined nations. Therefore.. it has to be something for more than money.... that important in what is a nation....

Money is a great tool... but like any tool... it performs best with skilled craftsmen utilizing it to its best suited potential for achieving its best results as the tool it is.
 
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RealityNow said:
Think in terms of "Integrity"... that's what the design and origin of the Constitution was founded to embody. It takes an educated society that respect the dignity of the principles of the Declarations of Independence, and the values of the Preamble, and the Integrity of the Constitution..... to Respect Our System....

We as a society must in our future overcome the "savagery" in both mentality and conduct... then we can become a society that respects the "integrity" of our systems.

Power Mad People (as in greed driven tyranny, or vain power mad dictatorships)... was not what the origins of the design for the Nation was about, nor was it the design model for nor of what is the Presidency... it is about responsibility... and often times people misinterpret responsibility to focus on the element of "power", in the vain sense of the use of the word power.

We are not yet, the society of the Civility that we must become... to see and live the true realism of the beauty and grace that Democracy can make for us as a nation and a society of people.

We've long been a nation struggling with "educating the population".... in some areas of society, there is still levels of illiteracy in general, and illiteracy of context to levels of incapability of interpretative understanding. We have a long history of class division, race division, monetary divisions and many other divisions, not to exclude the vast array of religious factions among the factors... all indicating that we as a society, may have come far and done much, but we have so much further to go, and we have to further our learning in doing do so. When we accept that truism.. then we make positive steps in doing so. Ancient societies thought themselves to be so advanced and evolved, that they did not continue trying to become better... they took much for granted and descended into their own preparations for their own demise.

People should look at the world... and the long history of nations that have longevity far extending past that of the United States... and still they are evolving, some fall back one step for every two steps they thought they made forward and then there are the 'forces" within society of the world, that is filled with challenges unto and upon and against one another.... When WE understand that we too are a struggling nation... and learn to face our struggles as a unified people, rather than riding on the haughitness of thinking we are supreme. When the realism within the world, continue to show us that we are not... We like to deny far too much, in self deluding ourselves that we are the greatest that can be ..... and that is the force and source that weakens us even more so... than we are willing to acknowledge and become aware of.... We talk human rights, but can't eradicate racist ignorance, monetary measured classicism, and religious aims of factions seeking autocratic like dominance, that does not respect the equality in religious freedom of other religious to exist with equal rights to exist.

We still think .. Money is the only answer'... and if it were, we've already lost.. because we are $22 Trillion in debt... far greater than the debt of any nations, and of a level of debt that is greater than combined nations. Therefore.. it has to be something for more than money.... that important in what is a nation....

Money is a great tool... but like any tool... it performs best with skilled craftsmen utilizing it to its best suited potential for achieving its best results as the tool it is.
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President Trump is in no way 'power mad' and he sure hasn't been greedy. It is because he has demonstrated integrity by not lying to us to get elected and by keeping his campaign promises as much as is possible more than any President in my increasingly long lifetime that he has earned my vote in 2020 and it has nothing to do with protocol or partisanship or ideology.

As far as know how and expertise goes, he also has demonstrated that more than any President in my lifetime. He also has the courage to eskew the status quo and think outside the box and try and try and try again until he gets to what works. Every other President has maybe tried once or twice but gives up if there is strong opposotion or it is difficult to do. President Trump might back off and regroup, but he doesn't give up.
 
Addressing the OP...

You emphasize clauses in Article II, Section 1 (in your quote) which were addressed by the ratification of the 12th Amendment in 1804. You underline the sentence fragment "The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be President", which I presume means that you've misunderstood "the greatest number of votes" to refer to popular votes. (It doesn't.) You later highlight a sentences referring to the original clause, awarding the vice presidency to the runner-up.

The Framers did not foresee the development of national political parties, but their experience after the first four elections changed their minds about the vice presidency. Legislation that would evolve into the 12th Amendment was the first item taken up by the new Congress following the election of 1800.

It will be the voice of the people, who are represented through the voice of the Electors.... as the person having the second highest number of Electoral Votes would be elected as Vice President.
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The "voice of the people, who are represented through the voice of the Electors" have been determining the Vice President, just as they did prior to 1804. People are technically voting for electors in presidential elections and the electors are bound (to various degrees, depending on their state) to then elect the slate of the party which the voters wanted. The Electoral College has been working great since the beginning. The idea that awarding the runner-up for the presidency the vice presidency is a total non-starter. History proved that to be a bad idea in practice and I'm far more confident in the 8th Congress and the legislatures of the various states in 1803-1804 more than I am in your opinion to the contrary.

It this were to be does as prescribed, we'd not have a system where the President and Vice President are generally of the same party.
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True, but again, that's not a bad thing. You would certainly see a drastically reduced role for the Vice President were the original system still in place.

Then, we may get to become and have a system where we have less of a Adversarial Partisan Maddening within our Governance Systems....
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As best I can understand this sentence, you appear to be suggesting that there would be less partisanship the government if we had a president and vice president from different parties? If so, I'm afraid that's terribly naive. If anything, the impact would be the opposite.

We would also stand firm on the principle that the President Presides and Make Decisions based on "Advise and Consent" as was originally laid out in Article II.
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The "advise and consent" clause of the Constitution is found in Article II, Section II and refers to the president's relationship with the U.S. Senate, providing for the Senate to "advise and consent" on treaties and certain executive appointments. It has nothing to do with the vice presidency. The clause was not affected one way or another by the ratification of the 12th Amendment.

SECTION 4
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
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Which has what to do with your preference for the pre-amended portions of Article II Section 1?

America was not of design to give "any person" the powers of a Dictator!!!
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Which has (again)....what to do with making the runner-up for the presidency the vice president?

It's difficult to understand what exactly you're complaining about, given that you're demonstrating a lack of understanding over some basic fundamentals of our constitutional system of government and appear to be conflating different issues. Not only is your contention wrong, but you appear to be badly misinformed about some basic facts. Ironic that later, in this same thread, you advocate for greater civics education.
 
TrueScotsman said:
With all that information, it is sad to see lies and delusions dominate so many.
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Those who spread lies, the bureaucratic descendants of Freud's nephew and Herr Goebbels, have raised propaganda to an art form. Thus it is logical that propaganda and lies dominate so many.
 
Harshaw said:
Dude. The 12th Amendment, 1804:



Also, the Electors were never intended to be the "voice of the people," so if you're urging fealty to the original Article II, you also have to accept that it's up to the state legislatures to decide how the Electors are chosen, not the populace. Which, unlike the mechanism you're citing from Article II, is still the case.
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I keep telling people the electors are not the same as the voice of the people and never were intended to.
 
The Constitution of the United States of America contains a number of sections which are less than crystalline in the clarity of their meaning. That has been both the weakness and the strength of the document. It's possible to make a case that it has lasted as well as it has because it can be modified by amendment and Supreme Court case law to meet the needs of the people.

It is the needs of the people, to the extent that they can be served by a federal government, that matter. The dichotomy here is that the Constitution either exists to serve the needs of the people or they exist to serve it. As a secular humanist, I've made my choice between the two long ago.
 
RealityNow said:
Now, that society is far more educated than any generation that has previously existed, and there is more knowledge available that supersedes the "folklore spread" that has been a process of misleading people to accept a "bastardized system" and the concept having been promoted in ways that led people not to think and not to review and not to question the long game of creations of precedence, that delude and confound the people into thinking its beyond them and too complex for them to digest or handle...

We now live in the Age of Information... and MUCH is being uncovered, and people are learning "how to read beyond the contorted manipulations" that have long be pushed and promoted in papers by those who seek to use the pundity of playing title games of status, as if to contort and shape the minds of people to accept their bastardized interpretations".. That worked for the past 100's of years... when people were sparsely educated, and the wealth and well to do were the craft-makers of the many papers and documents that have been pushed and promoted as if its 'gospel"... Now... in the Age of Information... is also the age of "investigation" and "inquiry" and "discovery" that can and will reverse the madness that intentional aims and acts of bastardizations was engaged, and the plutocratic agenda that has been the driving force, wrapped in a system designed to promote 'Wealthy White Male Controlled White Nationalist Agenda of Wealthy White Male Dominance".... Now, that we know what it is... and what its intent has been and continues to be... then we are armed with the awareness that identifies and exposes to "all of us, as the average working and poor people of society" to now know what has been the driving force that has established nationwide "disenfranchisement", based on being Poor, Being Black,and Being White while being Being Also Poor...

It's Time to AWAKEN....
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Is it? All the available knowledge in the world is useless without common sense. Now if you had said society in the U.S. is the most superficial in history...
 
RealityNow said:
Article II of the Constitution:



If this were held true and done as prescribed... then the President would not have any say in who is Vice President!!!!! It will be the voice of the people, who are represented through the voice of the Electors.... as the person having the second highest number of Electoral Votes would be elected as Vice President.

It this were to be does as prescribed, we'd not have a system where the President and Vice President are generally of the same party. Then, we may get to become and have a system where we have less of a Adversarial Partisan Maddening within our Governance Systems.... We would also stand firm on the principle that the President Presides and Make Decisions based on "Advise and Consent" as was originally laid out in Article II.

SECTION 4
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

America was not of design to give "any person" the powers of a Dictator!!!
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This was modified by the 12th Amendment.
 
RealityNow said:
Now, that society is far more educated than any generation that has previously existed, and there is more knowledge available that supersedes the "folklore spread" that has been a process of misleading people to accept a "bastardized system" and the concept having been promoted in ways that led people not to think and not to review and not to question the long game of creations of precedence, that delude and confound the people into thinking its beyond them and too complex for them to digest or handle...

We now live in the Age of Information... and MUCH is being uncovered, and people are learning "how to read beyond the contorted manipulations" that have long be pushed and promoted in papers by those who seek to use the pundity of playing title games of status, as if to contort and shape the minds of people to accept their bastardized interpretations".. That worked for the past 100's of years... when people were sparsely educated, and the wealth and well to do were the craft-makers of the many papers and documents that have been pushed and promoted as if its 'gospel"... Now... in the Age of Information... is also the age of "investigation" and "inquiry" and "discovery" that can and will reverse the madness that intentional aims and acts of bastardizations was engaged, and the plutocratic agenda that has been the driving force, wrapped in a system designed to promote 'Wealthy White Male Controlled White Nationalist Agenda of Wealthy White Male Dominance".... Now, that we know what it is... and what its intent has been and continues to be... then we are armed with the awareness that identifies and exposes to "all of us, as the average working and poor people of society" to now know what has been the driving force that has established nationwide "disenfranchisement", based on being Poor, Being Black,and Being White while being Being Also Poor...

It's Time to AWAKEN....
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This post is delusional. The knowledge there is just as or more manipulated than it ever was. Ever heard of fake news? Don't kid yourself into believing that we smart and more honest than our founders were.
 
RealityNow said:
America was not of design to give "any person" the powers of a Dictator!!!
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Tell that to Democrats who spied for Hitler and Stalin and whose sole purpose in to increase the power of govt. Do you think the president will be more or less Nazi-like if the Green New Deal becomes law?? Do you understand now??
 
Ikari said:
It would be funny to have a Trump/Clinton White House, lol.
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That kind of situation already happened, it sparked the debates for the 12 amendment. Adams, who was a Federalist, was elected President. Jefferson, who was a Democrat-Republican, was Vice-President, the two men disliked each other very much. Adams was pro-big government and Jefferson was just the opposite.
 
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