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Ramifications of citizens voting on bills/ reforms?

Brandondtennis

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I want to pose a question to y'all. What would the ramifications be if Congress (or the House) opened up the decision to the people of the United States, limited to citizens. In my proposition, however, the American public would be required to read the bill/proposition in its entirety and take a quiz/test covering the information before they would be allowed to make a vote. This is an accepted concept in medicine and science already. For example, OSHA (the occupational safety and health administration) requires employees to read through pages of information and take a test at the end, and the employee (or soon-to-be employee) has to pass with a certain standard before they can work. This practice applied to the population of American citizens would, I believe, ensure that the public is educated on the matter and it would also ensure the government figures would follow the true desires of the public.

However, I know there would be negative effects as well such as increased difficulty to vote on matter of importance for those less educated. it could be combated by the government authority and it would be in their best interest to keep the public educated so they they may be "smart" enough to absorb and process the information so they can still push their very important agendas.

So what do y'all think??
 
I want to pose a question to y'all. What would the ramifications be if Congress (or the House) opened up the decision to the people of the United States, limited to citizens. In my proposition, however, the American public would be required to read the bill/proposition in its entirety and take a quiz/test covering the information before they would be allowed to make a vote. This is an accepted concept in medicine and science already. For example, OSHA (the occupational safety and health administration) requires employees to read through pages of information and take a test at the end, and the employee (or soon-to-be employee) has to pass with a certain standard before they can work. This practice applied to the population of American citizens would, I believe, ensure that the public is educated on the matter and it would also ensure the government figures would follow the true desires of the public.

However, I know there would be negative effects as well such as increased difficulty to vote on matter of importance for those less educated. it could be combated by the government authority and it would be in their best interest to keep the public educated so they they may be "smart" enough to absorb and process the information so they can still push their very important agendas.

So what do y'all think??

Why would you limit voting to citizens? Those here by choice are all impacted by our laws and, as people of the world, should have a say in the decisions that effect their lives. In fact, having elected Trump, Americans have proved themselves incapable of rational thought and should be prohibited from voting in their own elections. It's much better that we show our appreciation for the sensibilities of those around the world that our economy and culture impacts so deeply and allow them to participate in the determination of our policy and presence.
 
I want to pose a question to y'all. What would the ramifications be if Congress (or the House) opened up the decision to the people of the United States, limited to citizens. In my proposition, however, the American public would be required to read the bill/proposition in its entirety and take a quiz/test covering the information before they would be allowed to make a vote. This is an accepted concept in medicine and science already. For example, OSHA (the occupational safety and health administration) requires employees to read through pages of information and take a test at the end, and the employee (or soon-to-be employee) has to pass with a certain standard before they can work. This practice applied to the population of American citizens would, I believe, ensure that the public is educated on the matter and it would also ensure the government figures would follow the true desires of the public.

However, I know there would be negative effects as well such as increased difficulty to vote on matter of importance for those less educated. it could be combated by the government authority and it would be in their best interest to keep the public educated so they they may be "smart" enough to absorb and process the information so they can still push their very important agendas.

So what do y'all think??

I'd agree in some, maybe even many cases.

In others, there is something to be said for choosing a "smarter" person than yourself to figure out the best path rather than having the less educated (and easily manipulated) decide the issue. Of course same issue applies to "choosing" the "smarter" person in the first place.

Then, of course, people will mention that this would be anti-constitutional in that constitution wants smaller states to have bigger representation. I suppose you could weight your votes in that case with higher weights for voters from those states. So, no real problem there.
 
Why would you limit voting to citizens? Those here by choice are all impacted by our laws and, as people of the world, should have a say in the decisions that effect their lives. In fact, having elected Trump, Americans have proved themselves incapable of rational thought and should be prohibited from voting in their own elections. It's much better that we show our appreciation for the sensibilities of those around the world that our economy and culture impacts so deeply and allow them to participate in the determination of our policy and presence.

Good question. So if it were opened up to all those in America, what would be the cutoff point for those who could NOT vote? I would pose that if you have never set foot in the United States then you would not be able to vote. But still where would the cutoff be?
 
Good question. So if it were opened up to all those in America, what would be the cutoff point for those who could NOT vote? I would pose that if you have never set foot in the United States then you would not be able to vote. But still where would the cutoff be?

Aw, c'mon. Just because you don't live in the USA doesn't mean that you aren't effected by US policy. The whole world is impacted by what we do here so the whole world should have a say in what we do, right?
 
I'd agree in some, maybe even many cases.

In others, there is something to be said for choosing a "smarter" person than yourself to figure out the best path rather than having the less educated (and easily manipulated) decide the issue. Of course same issue applies to "choosing" the "smarter" person in the first place.

Then, of course, people will mention that this would be anti-constitutional in that constitution wants smaller states to have bigger representation. I suppose you could weight your votes in that case with higher weights for voters from those states. So, no real problem there.


Interesting, so are you questioning the difficulty in MAKING the test just hard enough but not too hard to oppress a large number of people? It could be an issue if the person or people creating the test worded it in such a way that some would be swayed in one direction or another.

Also, yes I suppose you would have to increase the weight of smaller populations but I believe this is already practiced, except we just use more or less representatives.
 
Aw, c'mon. Just because you don't live in the USA doesn't mean that you aren't effected by US policy. The whole world is impacted by what we do here so the whole world should have a say in what we do, right?

Yes, I believe that is also true. The United States certainly impacts the world in a large way. I also think that if taken immediately to an extreme, opening up voting for the entire world TOO SOON could cause more harm than good. An example that popped into my mind is the world's most populous country, China. I imagine that large scale populations of voting from china could change all of America's proposition/ bills/ etc... But maybe in the very long term??
 
Yes, I believe that is also true. The United States certainly impacts the world in a large way. I also think that if taken immediately to an extreme, opening up voting for the entire world TOO SOON could cause more harm than good. An example that popped into my mind is the world's most populous country, China. I imagine that large scale populations of voting from china could change all of America's proposition/ bills/ etc... But maybe in the very long term??

Hmm....so if allowing a populous nation like China to vote on US policy could have negative effects is it not also possible that voting in large population centers in a given nation could adversely effect policies of that nation?
 
Hmm....so if allowing a populous nation like China to vote on US policy could have negative effects is it not also possible that voting in large population centers in a given nation could adversely effect policies of that nation?
Yes, to an extent. What I am thinking is that the policies would be affected but only to the extent of the American's public desires. I think it is quite different from immediately opening up voting to those populations not in the U.S. Another thought that just popped into my head is opening voting to ALL humans right away would be equivalent to making the United States similar to a publicly traded company.

I see your point... this method of voting in the United States a small scale version of another country voting and influencing politics here. But would it be influenced adversely? How? I see it being influenced but to to any extreme, as we are a pretty evenly divided country currently.
 
I want to pose a question to y'all. What would the ramifications be if Congress (or the House) opened up the decision to the people of the United States, limited to citizens.

So what do y'all think??

I think it would result in what my tag / signature line is suggesting, and because public referendums (which is what this would behave like) tend to be delivered without much consideration for impact to other efforts we would have a quagmire of consequences.
 
Yes, to an extent. What I am thinking is that the policies would be affected but only to the extent of the American's public desires. I think it is quite different from immediately opening up voting to those populations not in the U.S. Another thought that just popped into my head is opening voting to ALL humans right away would be equivalent to making the United States similar to a publicly traded company.

I see your point... this method of voting in the United States a small scale version of another country voting and influencing politics here. But would it be influenced adversely? How? I see it being influenced but to to any extreme, as we are a pretty evenly divided country currently.

People in various parts of America (like those in various parts of the world) often have interests primarily related to that area. It's unfair to them to have "outsiders" with little interest or knowledge of those interests making decisions that have great impact on them. It is for those reasons that institutions such as the Electoral College were included with the formation of the USA. The objective was to preserve the most independence possible while still recognizing certain aspects of mutual interest. It's kind of a "we can work together but we don't have to sleep together too" kind of relationship.
 
People in various parts of America (like those in various parts of the world) often have interests primarily related to that area. It's unfair to them to have "outsiders" with little interest or knowledge of those interests making decisions that have great impact on them. It is for those reasons that institutions such as the Electoral College were included with the formation of the USA. The objective was to preserve the most independence possible while still recognizing certain aspects of mutual interest. It's kind of a "we can work together but we don't have to sleep together too" kind of relationship.

Theoretically speaking, this concept is kind of like "We can work together, AND we can sleep together, but only if we want to."
In regards to the electoral college, was it made up because of the fact that it was improbable that people could all vote on every law, since there was no medium in which it was possible? Or was it placed due to the fact that people wanted to be able to do something even if it was unpopular as a whole?
Which is worse?
 
I think it would result in what my tag / signature line is suggesting, and because public referendums (which is what this would behave like) tend to be delivered without much consideration for impact to other efforts we would have a quagmire of consequences.
Okay this is what I am looking for. Specifically what consequences do you foresee occurring due to this concept? I already considered some negative aspects but what interests me is whether the positives outweigh the negatives.
 
Theoretically speaking, this concept is kind of like "We can work together, AND we can sleep together, but only if we want to."
In regards to the electoral college, was it made up because of the fact that it was improbable that people could all vote on every law, since there was no medium in which it was possible? Or was it placed due to the fact that people wanted to be able to do something even if it was unpopular as a whole?
Which is worse?

The purpose of the electoral college was to insure that every state had proportional representation in the election of the president. The ide was that the states, not the federal government, were supposed to be the primary authority in the union. The federal government was designed to function primarily as a mediator for disputes between the states.

Well, that view was primarily the view of the anti-federalists and the federalists foresaw a federal government with more authority. That being said, even the federalists understood the importance of state supremacy on most issues.
 
The purpose of the electoral college was to insure that every state had proportional representation in the election of the president. The ide was that the states, not the federal government, were supposed to be the primary authority in the union. The federal government was designed to function primarily as a mediator for disputes between the states.

Well, that view was primarily the view of the anti-federalists and the federalists foresaw a federal government with more authority. That being said, even the federalists understood the importance of state supremacy on most issues.

Then would this concept not be applicable to state-represented issues? My method still applies to local and state issues, in which all of the public can vote on each and every law or proposition. This would still ensure the state/ local independence while also maintaining representative government to take it to the federal level if it is an issue that even needs to go that high.

Edit: For example, the current president wants to impose tariffs. We, the people, vote on that. The votes go to the representative, and the representative forwards our wishes to the White House
 
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Then would this concept not be applicable to state-represented issues? My method still applies to local and state issues, in which all of the public can vote on each and every law or proposition. This would still ensure the state/ local independence while also maintaining representative government to take it to the federal level if it is an issue that even needs to go that high.

Edit: For example, the current president wants to impose tariffs. We, the people, vote on that. The votes go to the representative, and the representative forwards our wishes to the White House

No. "Winner take all" elections inevitably lead to horrible decisions and failed everything. Think about it. Ask half a dozen of your co-workers where they want to order lunch from and see how long it takes them to decide. If they do happen to decide, try collecting the orders before the place closes or your shift ends. If you actually get orders and go to pick up the stuff then take note of how many people ended up 100% satisfied after you bring it all back. Based on those results, try it a second time and see what happens. Eventually the only way to resolve all the conflict is to start taking away choices and THAT ends your trial democracy.
 
No. "Winner take all" elections inevitably lead to horrible decisions and failed everything. Think about it. Ask half a dozen of your co-workers where they want to order lunch from and see how long it takes them to decide. If they do happen to decide, try collecting the orders before the place closes or your shift ends. If you actually get orders and go to pick up the stuff then take note of how many people ended up 100% satisfied after you bring it all back. Based on those results, try it a second time and see what happens. Eventually the only way to resolve all the conflict is to start taking away choices and THAT ends your trial democracy.

Okay let's apply my method to the same situation. The question is asked about which pizza they want between 2 or 3 choices and to respond in 30 minutes (enough time to make check their bank accounts and look t the menu). The people put in their votes, and the manager of their department receives the votes. All the different managers give the president their results and based on the votes, they get the pizza they want. They get it in plenty of time with more people content than upset. Doubt 100% satisfaction will ever occur, but still better than the president saying I want anchovy and frog meat pizza, you're welcome.
 
Okay let's apply my method to the same situation. The question is asked about which pizza they want between 2 or 3 choices and to respond in 30 minutes (enough time to make check their bank accounts and look t the menu). The people put in their votes, and the manager of their department receives the votes. All the different managers give the president their results and based on the votes, they get the pizza they want. They get it in plenty of time with more people content than upset. Doubt 100% satisfaction will ever occur, but still better than the president saying I want anchovy and frog meat pizza, you're welcome.

You are 100% correct. In a direct democracy the less choices you give your constituents the easier it is to get a task completed. However, less choices also means less freedom. It also means that some people are NEVER going to get their choice.
 
I want to pose a question to y'all. What would the ramifications be if Congress (or the House) opened up the decision to the people of the United States, limited to citizens. In my proposition, however, the American public would be required to read the bill/proposition in its entirety and take a quiz/test covering the information before they would be allowed to make a vote. This is an accepted concept in medicine and science already. For example, OSHA (the occupational safety and health administration) requires employees to read through pages of information and take a test at the end, and the employee (or soon-to-be employee) has to pass with a certain standard before they can work. This practice applied to the population of American citizens would, I believe, ensure that the public is educated on the matter and it would also ensure the government figures would follow the true desires of the public.

However, I know there would be negative effects as well such as increased difficulty to vote on matter of importance for those less educated. it could be combated by the government authority and it would be in their best interest to keep the public educated so they they may be "smart" enough to absorb and process the information so they can still push their very important agendas.

So what do y'all think??

I believe that all bills should be presented to the citizens of the United States via website with a 90 day review period before a vote can be cast in congress. The average citizen would be really pissed off to see all bribery & pork aimed at certain district representatives just to get a yes vote. 90 days would give the proposed bill enough time to float around and be talked about by the citizens, and for them to let their district representatives know what they think.

The only exceptions would be emergency action bills.

Just my opinion.
 
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You are 100% correct. In a direct democracy the less choices you give your constituents the easier it is to get a task completed. However, less choices also means less freedom. It also means that some people are NEVER going to get their choice.
If so, that would absolutely be a large problem. But political parties are ever changing, the platforms change, people pick and choose which parts fit for them. So who would NEVER get their choice? I think the variability and ebb and flow of daily life would prevent such a thing. I could be mistaken, but any singular vote would have its consequences, regardless of party. Still seems relatively even to me.
 
Why does everyone seem to forget Switzerland exists when discussing direct democracy? Their system is far from perfect and has it its own problems but it is a model of direct democracy and the Swiss electorate has made some incredibly stupid decisions but the discussion on direct democracy does not need to be purely theoretical.
 
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Okay this is what I am looking for. Specifically what consequences do you foresee occurring due to this concept? I already considered some negative aspects but what interests me is whether the positives outweigh the negatives.

Take any example we can come up with.

NAFTA, say there was a direct vote on removal from that Agreement. What makes you think the voting population has enough knowledge of the agreement details, economic and trade impact, or just about any other key impact being in that agreement or withdrawing from that agreement would be like? We know that rhetoric on involvement with Canada and Mexico would outweigh business and production movements over the duration where a sudden withdraw would be like dropping a bomb on the markets. Going into or leaving NAFTA suggests picking different winners and losers that the voting public may not fully understand. Forcing them to read the entire bill (with some sort of half assed test) does not cure the complexity of what that impact may be.

Raising taxes on the rich substantially, say there was a direct vote on that item. What makes you think the voting population has enough knowledge of economics and aggregate demand, monetary conditions and policy from the Fed, investor sentiment, and business outlook to make that decision? We know that odds are the feel good aspect to the vote would outweigh any potential impacts from making a sudden change like that. There may even be the false expectation that those who saw their taxes raised would react in a matter the voter thought, did nor did not may not even matter to the feel good aspect of sticking it to the rich 99%'er style.

Gay and Lesbian being able to adopt, say there was a direct vote on that item. What makes you think the voting population will really consider the statistical facts on this matter, probably resorting to belief and religious ideology suggesting no? We know that when looking at a minority of any type and for any reason, there is a stronger likelihood that majority thinking will not consider something outside of conventional norms no matter what facts and statistics are presented. And we are not even talking about how a minority may feel about the result, the majority tends to not care and is happy to marginalize a minority so long as it aligns to ideology.

Going into any war or conflict, say there was a direct vote on that item... perhaps Iran. The voting public will not have all the knowledge of what is going on in Iran, what they are or are not doing, how other nations feel about the matter or if they will participate or join the opposition, nor what would happen long term (in relations, in costs for the war and the veterans likely to be created, in lost lives or impacts to those families,) nor really any other factor you would think would weigh heavily on policy makers. And we are not even talking about how the military might feel about being directed by such a condition.

Take any other example after any shocking event, and odds are the voter will respond in kind just as likely to be in a panic to vote a certain way. Good intentions or otherwise, the results could be detrimental to those in need or dealing with the repercussions of that event. A flood may result in voting for things that may or may not really help, a terrorist attack may see the voter responding in a way that exchanges more liberty for security (ending up with neither,) the next shooting of an innocent and unarmed minority at the hands of the police resulting in the next encounter ending worse.

A single person can be, again can be - not always is, rational and well thought out in how to handle such a decision. Congress and all their ideologies and influences are already painful enough to get action from that is meaningful without all sorts of downstream consequences. You put a direct vote into the mix on a national level and you get very little other than votes driven by emotion, tribalism, who can be marginalized, and without a care in the world about unintended consequences.
 
If so, that would absolutely be a large problem. But political parties are ever changing, the platforms change, people pick and choose which parts fit for them. So who would NEVER get their choice? I think the variability and ebb and flow of daily life would prevent such a thing. I could be mistaken, but any singular vote would have its consequences, regardless of party. Still seems relatively even to me.

What incentive would the party with the majority of votes behind them have to allow any other party to have a vote? Why wouldn't they just say "We've decided, it's turkey loaf for everyone because it's easy and healthier than bologna"?

Watch what happens in real world situations like this. The DNC was a great example as they thwarted a HUGE chunk of their base to run Hillary at all costs. Sure, they paid lip service to Bernie in public but blew him off behind his back. Those Bernie supporters then had no choice but to support Hillary and even now are being force fed AOC instead of Bernie.
 
Take any example we can come up with.

NAFTA, say there was a direct vote on removal from that Agreement. What makes you think the voting population has enough knowledge of the agreement details, economic and trade impact, or just about any other key impact being in that agreement or withdrawing from that agreement would be like? We know that rhetoric on involvement with Canada and Mexico would outweigh business and production movements over the duration where a sudden withdraw would be like dropping a bomb on the markets. Going into or leaving NAFTA suggests picking different winners and losers that the voting public may not fully understand. Forcing them to read the entire bill (with some sort of half assed test) does not cure the complexity of what that impact may be.

Raising taxes on the rich substantially, say there was a direct vote on that item. What makes you think the voting population has enough knowledge of economics and aggregate demand, monetary conditions and policy from the Fed, investor sentiment, and business outlook to make that decision? We know that odds are the feel good aspect to the vote would outweigh any potential impacts from making a sudden change like that. There may even be the false expectation that those who saw their taxes raised would react in a matter the voter thought, did nor did not may not even matter to the feel good aspect of sticking it to the rich 99%'er style.

Gay and Lesbian being able to adopt, say there was a direct vote on that item. What makes you think the voting population will really consider the statistical facts on this matter, probably resorting to belief and religious ideology suggesting no? We know that when looking at a minority of any type and for any reason, there is a stronger likelihood that majority thinking will not consider something outside of conventional norms no matter what facts and statistics are presented. And we are not even talking about how a minority may feel about the result, the majority tends to not care and is happy to marginalize a minority so long as it aligns to ideology.

Going into any war or conflict, say there was a direct vote on that item... perhaps Iran. The voting public will not have all the knowledge of what is going on in Iran, what they are or are not doing, how other nations feel about the matter or if they will participate or join the opposition, nor what would happen long term (in relations, in costs for the war and the veterans likely to be created, in lost lives or impacts to those families,) nor really any other factor you would think would weigh heavily on policy makers. And we are not even talking about how the military might feel about being directed by such a condition.

Take any other example after any shocking event, and odds are the voter will respond in kind just as likely to be in a panic to vote a certain way. Good intentions or otherwise, the results could be detrimental to those in need or dealing with the repercussions of that event. A flood may result in voting for things that may or may not really help, a terrorist attack may see the voter responding in a way that exchanges more liberty for security (ending up with neither,) the next shooting of an innocent and unarmed minority at the hands of the police resulting in the next encounter ending worse.

A single person can be, again can be - not always is, rational and well thought out in how to handle such a decision. Congress and all their ideologies and influences are already painful enough to get action from that is meaningful without all sorts of downstream consequences. You put a direct vote into the mix on a national level and you get very little other than votes driven by emotion, tribalism, who can be marginalized, and without a care in the world about unintended consequences.

You can see what happens with all that when you look at Switzerland. See joining the EEA getting rejected because people didn't understand what the EEA/ now EU was or is, the 9000 referendums on taxes (some pass some don't), gay and lesbian rights not being adopted because of very religious smaller cantons over ruling the larger cantons, women not being able to vote till the 1960s and in all cantonal elections till the 19 ****ing 90s, trying to pass anti-immigration referendums despite the fact it would destroy Switzerland's economy overnight and end all agreements with the EU, and any other example you can think of. Some good, some bad, some really bad.
 
Take any example we can come up with.

NAFTA, say there was a direct vote on removal from that Agreement. What makes you think the voting population has enough knowledge of the agreement details, economic and trade impact, or just about any other key impact being in that agreement or withdrawing from that agreement would be like? We know that rhetoric on involvement with Canada and Mexico would outweigh business and production movements over the duration where a sudden withdraw would be like dropping a bomb on the markets. Going into or leaving NAFTA suggests picking different winners and losers that the voting public may not fully understand. Forcing them to read the entire bill (with some sort of half assed test) does not cure the complexity of what that impact may be.

Raising taxes on the rich substantially, say there was a direct vote on that item. What makes you think the voting population has enough knowledge of economics and aggregate demand, monetary conditions and policy from the Fed, investor sentiment, and business outlook to make that decision? We know that odds are the feel good aspect to the vote would outweigh any potential impacts from making a sudden change like that. There may even be the false expectation that those who saw their taxes raised would react in a matter the voter thought, did nor did not may not even matter to the feel good aspect of sticking it to the rich 99%'er style.

Gay and Lesbian being able to adopt, say there was a direct vote on that item. What makes you think the voting population will really consider the statistical facts on this matter, probably resorting to belief and religious ideology suggesting no? We know that when looking at a minority of any type and for any reason, there is a stronger likelihood that majority thinking will not consider something outside of conventional norms no matter what facts and statistics are presented. And we are not even talking about how a minority may feel about the result, the majority tends to not care and is happy to marginalize a minority so long as it aligns to ideology.

Going into any war or conflict, say there was a direct vote on that item... perhaps Iran. The voting public will not have all the knowledge of what is going on in Iran, what they are or are not doing, how other nations feel about the matter or if they will participate or join the opposition, nor what would happen long term (in relations, in costs for the war and the veterans likely to be created, in lost lives or impacts to those families,) nor really any other factor you would think would weigh heavily on policy makers. And we are not even talking about how the military might feel about being directed by such a condition.

Take any other example after any shocking event, and odds are the voter will respond in kind just as likely to be in a panic to vote a certain way. Good intentions or otherwise, the results could be detrimental to those in need or dealing with the repercussions of that event. A flood may result in voting for things that may or may not really help, a terrorist attack may see the voter responding in a way that exchanges more liberty for security (ending up with neither,) the next shooting of an innocent and unarmed minority at the hands of the police resulting in the next encounter ending worse.

A single person can be, again can be - not always is, rational and well thought out in how to handle such a decision. Congress and all their ideologies and influences are already painful enough to get action from that is meaningful without all sorts of downstream consequences. You put a direct vote into the mix on a national level and you get very little other than votes driven by emotion, tribalism, who can be marginalized, and without a care in the world about unintended consequences.

These are all very good examples. This is why I don't like politics haha. But thanks for the specific examples. I would like to yield the balance of my time.
 
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