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The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

James972 said:
But after millions of years of slavery he was the one to set in motion process that freed them and then billions of other human beings (most recently, 1.4 billion Chinese from libcommunism) making him perhaps the most important human being to ever have lived.
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So Jefferson recognized the need and the righteousness of freeing humans held in bondage...but didn't actually free any slaves, instead preferring to keep them enslaved while he drew breath ?
 
Rich2018 said:
So Jefferson recognized the need and the righteousness of freeing humans held in bondage...but didn't actually free any slaves, instead preferring to keep them enslaved while he drew breath ?
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Yea, that about sums it up for the low intellect and uneducated.
 
Rich2018 said:
So Jefferson recognized the need and the righteousness of freeing humans held in bondage...but didn't actually free any slaves, instead preferring to keep them enslaved while he drew breath ?
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dear, humans recognized the need increasingly for 1 million years but Jefferson took giant steps that no one had taken before that eventually freed billions of human beings. Had he and the others acted too quickly there would have been no nation and no freedom for anyone on earth. Now do you understand?
 
Rich2018 said:
Thank you.

It would have been better to include slaves in "we the people" and freed them in the Constitution.
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total lib illiteracy of course. Constitution would not have been ratified and slaves would not have been freed nor 1.4 billion Chinese. Simple enough!!
 
James972 said:
...humans recognized the need increasingly for 1 million years but Jefferson took giant steps that no one had taken before that eventually freed billions of human beings. Had he and the others acted too quickly there would have been no nation and no freedom for anyone on earth. Now do you understand?
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Humans (homo-sapiens) have only been around for 200,000 years max.

Billions you say. Would his example of freeing his own slaves not have resonated more?

Did not the British (where slavery has never been legal) and Spanish not do more to stamp out the world slave trade ?


...total lib illiteracy of course. Constitution would not have been ratified and slaves would not have been freed nor 1.4 billion Chinese. Simple enough!!
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Why not ?

The slaves would vote against a document that freed them ?

Was the USA not founded on freedom or did that not apply to non-whites or women ?
 
As with many threads that go on for more than a few pages, this one has been derailed. Hopefully, my comment here will bring us back to the topic - The Electoral College and its relevancy in today's America.

BACA, et al v. Colorado Department of State

In 2016, Michael Baca was one of Colorado's electors. As Hillary Clinton, had won the majority of the state's votes, Baca was supposed to vote for her at the meeting of the Electoral College. He felt he couldn't do that, while at the same time he did not want to vote for Donald Trump, so he wrote John Kasich's name on his ballot. He was removed from his position by the Colorado Dept of State and another person was chosen to cast the ballot.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress." These presidential electors shall then "convene in their respective states" and "vote by [distinct] ballot for President and Vice-President"; the person "receiving [a majority] of votes for President shall be the President … and the person receiving [a majority] of votes for Vice-President shall be the Vice President." U.S. Const. art. II, § 1, cl. 2, and Amendment XII.

The Return of the Faithless Elector
Are we ready for a return to the "original meaning" of the Electoral College?

"Electoral College"—the actual institution, comprised of 538 State-appointed presidential electors—because under long-standing practice, developed over the past 220 years or so, the Electoral College doesn't really do anything other than to formally and ceremonially ratify the results of the presidential election. We hold an election, we count the votes for each candidate in each of the States, we place the number of presidential electors ("electoral votes") to which each State is constitutionally entitled (#Representatives + #Senators; see above) into the winning candidate's column, we add up the columns, and that's that—game over. The Electoral College's formal ratification of the results a month or so post-election is a mere after-thought, a little bit of Kabuki democracy that has only symbolic significance.

It is abundantly clear that the Electoral College was not designed to have this kind of purely ceremonial function**. Under the Framers' original conception, the Electoral College was to be a true electoral body, its members chosen by the people at large (at least the people who were entitled to vote) for the express purpose of choosing the President and Vice-President. That's why they were called "electors"- people who "elect."
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The decision in Baca v. Colorado Dept of State, depending upon follow-up decisions could mean that in the future, the 538 chosen as electors could choose a President that the majority of Americans didn't vote for -- Oh, they've already done that, haven't they. As originally envisioned by the Founders, the Electors would be picked from the learned, affluent 'elite' and they would then choose the best person for the Oval Office -- nevermind the wishes of the voters.

The Federalist Papers, for instance, couldn't be clearer on this score. The Electoral College was, as Hamilton put it in No. 60, part of a balancing scheme using "dissimilar modes of constituting the several component parts of the government: The House of Representatives being elected immediately by the people, the Senate by the State legislatures, the President by electors chosen for that purpose by the people." It was part of a kind of "distillation" process that would help ensure, hopefully, that the officers of the new federal government would be the most qualified people (and would, because of their different modes of selection, balance out each other's different passions and predilections); the people would directly elect their Representatives, and for the other federal offices they would elect people who would elect people (their State legislators for their Senators, their presidential electors for the president and vice-president).
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Or just have the House select the head of the government.

Make the head of state an honorary position with no real power - like the Queen of England or the President of Germany.
 
Rich2018 said:
Or just have the House select the head of the government.

Make the head of state an honorary position with no real power - like the Queen of England or the President of Germany.
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Who the hell would want this asshole to play golf all the time on my dime? Oh, never mind, he does that already...
 
prometeus said:
Who the hell would want this asshole to play golf all the time on my dime? Oh, never mind, he does that already...
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He could launch ships and open schools and hospitals...host foreign dignitaries


Be an a-political figure that everybody loves. (the USA could use at least one)


Let the head of government get his hands dirty with running the country.

The USA is the only government in the developed world where the head of state is also the head of the government. (France does have a particularly peculiar model where the head of state does take on some governmental issues).
 
I still say the only problem with the electoral college is the fact the democrats lost. Had they won we would not be having this discussion. I like the electoral college because it clearly gives people in small communities and low population states a voice. I am just not a fan of mob rule.
 
James972 said:
Liberals hate America; they hate the freedom Jefferson's America stood for, so if they can paint Jefferson as an evil slave owner then they have painted America as evil. Did you think they spied for Stalin and HItler and elected AOC because they love America?
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So Jefferson was NOT a slave owner?
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I still say the only problem with the electoral college is the fact the democrats lost. Had they won we would not be having this discussion. I like the electoral college because it clearly gives people in small communities and low population states a voice. I am just not a fan of mob rule.
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I was in the sixth grade in 1960 when I first had the discussion that the EC should be changed.

btw- the Dems won that year in the EC and in the popular vote.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I still say the only problem with the electoral college is the fact the democrats lost. Had they won we would not be having this discussion. I like the electoral college because it clearly gives people in small communities and low population states a voice. I am just not a fan of mob rule.
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They have a voice - it's called Congress

You think it's good for democracy in the USA that the head of the government got less than half the popular vote?

What about the "voice" of the people who voted for the candidate who got the majority of the votes ?
 
Rich2018 said:
You think it's good for democracy in the USA that the head of the government got less than half the popular vote?
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Out Founding Father geniuses did not give us a democracy because they know liberalism would emerge. The Constitution sought every way possible to make liberalism illegal.
 
Rich2018 said:
The USA is the only government in the developed world where the head of state is also the head of the government.
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and we are greatest country in human history by far; so the liberal of course proposes we copy inferiors??
 
haymarket said:
I was in the sixth grade in 1960 when I first had the discussion that the EC should be changed.

btw- the Dems won that year in the EC and in the popular vote.
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I have also been through that same thought. I could not understand the senate having so much power. A state with less than half the people of my state had the same voice. I was all for democracy majority rules. Then I moved out into the real world and saw how majority rule was so detrimental to the minority or the individual. I sat helpless as the major cities took all of my tax money and all I got was the bill. I paid in taxes but my roads did not get repaired because we were not the majority. We had no voice other than in the presidential race. At the state level Philly got the state tax money and I paid the bill. I pray that rural America does not have their voice taken away from them on the federal level as well.
 
James972 said:
Out Founding Father geniuses did not give us a democracy because they know liberalism would emerge. The Constitution sought every way possible to make liberalism illegal....
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The "founding fathers gave the USA a Constitutional Republic as opposed to a Constitutional Monarchy - which is was the UK was and is today.

"Constitutional" means they were democracies and still are...though you could argue the USA is more democratic that the UK.


...and we are greatest country in human history by far; so the liberal of course proposes we copy inferiors??
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The "greatest" LMAO
What categories does the USA lead the word in ?

In fact watch this video:


YouTube
 
James972 said:
If I said he was not I'll pay you $10,000. Bet???
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Lets us be clear. You are saying that Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote the Declaration, was NOT a slave owner?
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I have also been through that same thought. I could not understand the senate having so much power. A state with less than half the people of my state had the same voice. I was all for democracy majority rules. Then I moved out into the real world and saw how majority rule was so detrimental to the minority or the individual. I sat helpless as the major cities took all of my tax money and all I got was the bill. I paid in taxes but my roads did not get repaired because we were not the majority. We had no voice other than in the presidential race. At the state level Philly got the state tax money and I paid the bill. I pray that rural America does not have their voice taken away from them on the federal level as well.
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Dp you have stats that prove this accusation?
 
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