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The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

NWRatCon said:
Here is how
The National Popular Vote Compact works. There's a link to help. The possibility of a popular vote "tie" is infinitesimal. A tie under the compact is mathematically impossible, because it represents a majority of the votes.
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Correction: The discussion wasn't about your discussion about the compact, but about straight national popular vote. Not telling a population of any state that their votes went to a candidate they didn't want. Of course as long as the Electoral College is in place the current tie-breaking procedures are applicable.
 
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Irwin Corey said:
You must be a tRump supporter, but IMHO most people in America and throughout the world believe DJT IS the greatest CON-MAN EVER IN HISTORY. He was and is unqualified for the job, is anything BUT dignified and, IMHO has disgraced the office of President of the United States to the point that the next PRESIDENT's greatest task will be restoring dignity to the office they hold.
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So, in your opinion, most people in America agree with you?

Well, in my opinion, most people think you are the back end of a donkey, I guess we can wait and see what is right....

You have yet to tell me how the EC buffer didn't work, other than....you don't like the President.
 
sjmay said:
It's not, it's a direct democracy, which is NOT the United States.
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Again, you don't even know what apparently a DIRECT DEMOCRACY is. It has nothing whatsoever to do with abolishing the EC.
 
haymarket said:
That is the current system where you don't have be even on the ballot in well over 35 states and don't even need a single persons vote in over 35 states to be elected President.
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So essentially you want to do away with the current system because....you lost 2 years ago..
 
sjmay said:
Again, not what the United States is.....do you understand the difference between direct and representative Democracy?
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You obviously do not.
 
haymarket said:
Again, you don't even know what apparently a DIRECT DEMOCRACY is. It has nothing whatsoever to do with abolishing the EC.
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This might be one of the stupidest thing's I've ever heard....

Do you know what abolishing the EC does?
 
sjmay said:
And if you abolish the EC, you only matter if you live in a populous state, you don't see the irony there?
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That is not true. No matter where your vote is cast under a national system your vote still counts the same as any other vote cast anywhere.
 
sjmay said:
I didn't ask what Hamilton said about it,

I am asking what you think it was set up for, again you refused to answer.
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Educated people go back to the beginning to find out why a thing exists (you did ask, "what do you think it WAS set up for) , else all you get is an uneducated guess. Haymarket is trying to give you an educated opinion, that is not refusing to answer.

Once you've educated yourself, and formed an opinion, it's fair to say that's what "YOU THINK".
 
jmotivator said:
Because, as the Democrats have so readily demonstrated, they are all for abandoning the constitution when it doesn't favor them, and the EC is one of the things that ensures that majority doesn't rule in perpetuity.

They are close to the "one person, one vote, one time" form of government.
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And you are against one person/one vote!?!?!?!!?!?! WHY????
 
sjmay said:
LOL Love the naivete.
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Facts aren't naive.

Sacramento is about an hour from San Fransisco, San Jose, etc, rough guess, population of those areas are 3.5 million, when you count Sacramento, San jose, Oakland, San Fran, Stockton etc,

Nashville and surrounding area, is about 1 million....give or take?
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I gave you the number - it's about 2M.

So literally all you have to do, is win the popular vote in those FIVE areas, and TN doesn't matter.....
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That's just.....completely wrong! Those five areas have a population (and I'm assuming your numbers are correct) of 3.5 million. Tennessee has a population of 6.8 million. Nashville is about 2M. So, yeah, Tennessee does matter.

Furthermore, it's not longer about "winning" an area like those five cities. It's about winning votes, and whether those five CA cities vote 60-40 for Hillary or 51-49 for Hillary REALLY matters. It's the difference between Trump getting 1.4 million (at 40-60) versus Hillary's 2.1 million. But at 49-51 Trump gets 1.8 million votes. The difference is 400,000 votes extra votes in a LOSING EFFORT to "win" those cities.

Run the numbers for the major MSAs (top 4 pop over 5 million) in Tennessee and you can show yourself that Tennessee does matter, no matter what happens in CA.
 
sjmay said:
This might be one of the stupidest thing's I've ever heard....

Do you know what abolishing the EC does?
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Yes, the statement that abolishing the EC would give up DIRECT DEMOCRACY is incredibly stupid.
 
Irwin Corey said:
Educated people go back to the beginning to find out why a thing exists (you did ask, "what do you think it WAS set up for) , else all you get is an uneducated guess. Haymarket is trying to give you an educated opinion, that is not refusing to answer.

Once you've educated yourself, and formed an opinion, it's fair to say that's what "YOU THINK".
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Except he hasn't formed an opinion, he's pointing others to Hamilton.....who, can be taken with a grain of salt given that he manipulated the first election....

He refuses to answer the question and deflects to Hamilton, which I guess is his right...but it speaks volumes of wanting to debate, how can you debate if you won't answer questions.
 
haymarket said:
Yes, the statement that abolishing the EC would give up DIRECT DEMOCRACY is incredibly stupid.
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Give up? How the hell can we give it up, if the United States NEVER HAD IT.
 
sjmay said:
Why? Because you don't like the President?

Tell me why the EC failed, or the "buffer theory" failed again?
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Because the Republican party, in 2016 recognized that Donald Trump was uniquely unqualified but couldn't eliminate him as their candidate. Because he has demonstrated, daily, his lack of qualifications and represents a clear and present danger to the nation. Because he was rejected by a majority of voters, and still refuses to represent their interests. The list is long, but it could become a distraction.
 
JasperL said:
Facts aren't naive.



I gave you the number - it's about 2M.



That's just.....completely wrong! Those five areas have a population (and I'm assuming your numbers are correct) of 3.5 million. Tennessee has a population of 6.8 million. Nashville is about 2M. So, yeah, Tennessee does matter.

Furthermore, it's not longer about "winning" an area like those five cities. It's about winning votes, and whether those five CA cities vote 60-40 for Hillary or 51-49 for Hillary REALLY matters. It's the difference between Trump getting 1.4 million (at 40-60) versus Hillary's 2.1 million. But at 49-51 Trump gets 1.8 million votes. The difference is 400,000 votes extra votes in a LOSING EFFORT to "win" those cities.

Run the numbers for the major MSAs (top 4 pop over 5 million) in Tennessee and you can show yourself that Tennessee does matter, no matter what happens in CA.
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Might have had some bad information, that said Nashville was 600K, Murfeesboro was about 100K etc, hell I think I even included Chattanooga in there as well.

Regardless you proving my point, TEnnessee at 6 million total is only about what, 50% more important than FIVE CITIES in ONE state.....
 
jmotivator said:
Because, as the Democrats have so readily demonstrated, they are all for abandoning the constitution when it doesn't favor them, and the EC is one of the things that ensures that majority doesn't rule in perpetuity.

They are close to the "one person, one vote, one time" form of government.
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Why is electing President by a non-majority a goal? We elect ALL OTHER elected officials by majority, but that's not bad because?????? My governor is elected by the majority in perpetuity. Should we change the rules for that to make sure the rural people get 5 votes to my 1 since I live in a major MSA? Why not?
 
NWRatCon said:
Because the Republican party, in 2016 recognized that Donald Trump was uniquely unqualified but couldn't eliminate him as their candidate. Because he has demonstrated, daily, his lack of qualifications and represents a clear and present danger to the nation. Because he was rejected by a majority of voters, and still refuses to represent their interests. The list is long, but it could become a distraction.
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Bolded the opinion part......back it up with facts please.
 
JasperL said:
Why is electing President by a non-majority a goal? We elect ALL OTHER elected officials by majority, but that's not bad because?????? My governor is elected by the majority in perpetuity. Should we change the rules for that to make sure the rural people get 5 votes to my 1 since I live in a major MSA? Why not?
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Because, STATE's rights, do you really want people in Los Angeles Metro area, dictating to Tennessee as a state, what is important and what is not?

That is what happens when you go direct democracy
 
sjmay said:
Except he hasn't formed an opinion, he's pointing others to Hamilton.....who, can be taken with a grain of salt given that he manipulated the first election....
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You keep saying that, but, I feel it necessary to point out, is not actually true.
 
sjmay said:
Except he hasn't formed an opinion, he's pointing others to Hamilton.....who, can be taken with a grain of salt given that he manipulated the first election....

He refuses to answer the question and deflects to Hamilton, which I guess is his right...but it speaks volumes of wanting to debate, how can you debate if you won't answer questions.
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He answered your question from his knowledge of the subject. <-period His answer doesn't suit you so you're "trying" to discount it.

YOU are the first person I've ever talked to that takes HAMILTON , when it comes to understanding the Constitution, with a "grain of salt". In FACT the Supreme Court has traditionally leaned heavily on the Federalist Papers when making Constitutional judgements often citing them in their decisions.
 
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sjmay said:
Because, STATE's rights, do you really want people in Los Angeles Metro area, dictating to Tennessee as a state, what is important and what is not?

That is what happens when you go direct democracy
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Here's the flaw in your logic, my friend: "do you really want people in Tenessee, dictating to California as a State..." as it is now?
 
sjmay said:
Except he hasn't formed an opinion, he's pointing others to Hamilton.....who, can be taken with a grain of salt given that he manipulated the first election....

He refuses to answer the question and deflects to Hamilton, which I guess is his right...but it speaks volumes of wanting to debate, how can you debate if you won't answer questions.
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Hamilton expand to the young nation how the EC would work and what's its purpose was. I. of course, will deflect to Hamilton and make no excuse for having done so and will do it each and every time. Hamilton foresaw the greatest threat coming from an foreign power who would attempt to put a creature of their own control in our high office and promised us that the electors would protect the American people. Those are not my word or my wises or my hope or my dream. That is what Hamilton told the nation we were getting in return for not having a direct opulent vote for President.'


Sadly, in 2016, not one meeting of even one states Electors discussed that same matter. Not a one. The EC failed us.

Read it for yourself if you don't believe me.

The Avalon Project : Federalist No 68

Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention
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It is right there in black and white.
 
NWRatCon said:
You keep saying that, but, I feel it necessary to point out, is not actually true.
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What part is not true?

Hamilton manipulated the vote because the entire Congress at that time, was scared what would happen if Adams and Washington tied in votes, so Hamilton went and manipulated people to leave Adams off some ballots, and with that, Adams BARELY won the VP office, it was going to be between Adams and Clinton at one point...
 
sjmay said:
I just showed you why that was false, when the population of 5 cities in CA....just FIVE.....are more populated than 22 states in the Union......tell me again where the campaigns are going to be.
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And I responded to your misguided analysis.

Again, that's the wrong way to look at this. The population of those 22 states is many times that of those five cities. Mississippi has a population of about 3 million. Get that vote from 60-40 to 70-30 and you just gained 300,000 votes. Now there's no need to even acknowledge Mississippi as a state by Presidential candidates, because they all know it's going red for President.
 
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