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Thread: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    I would suggest that you read this essay by James Madison on "Sovereignty" it help explain the difference between the Federal Governments sovereignty and that of State Sovereignty. As I explained that both State and Federal Sovereignty are equal and both have their respective places in our Republic.

    Here is the link to Madison's essay: James Madison: Essay on Sovereignty, December 1835
    They clearly are not equal, as Article I, Section 10 clearly demonstrates. Only the federal government is the sovereign authority for the US. The States are specifically prohibited from having any sovereign authority. The Civil War proved that point quite emphatically. States do not even have the authority to leave the US, without prior federal approval.

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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
    They clearly are not equal, as Article I, Section 10 clearly demonstrates. Only the federal government is the sovereign authority for the US. The States are specifically prohibited from having any sovereign authority. The Civil War proved that point quite emphatically. States do not even have the authority to leave the US, without prior federal approval.
    Again I'll remind you the the Federal Government is only Sovereign in the powers that the States have ceded to the Federal Government, Article 1, Section 10 defines these powers, all other powers are given to the States. I'll refer you to the 9th and 10th amendments. The federal government can not interfere with the States government and can not supply any assistance to any State unless the State request aid or assistance. The only time the federal government can take action in a State without the permission of the State is if the State is in violation of Federal law. All other matters dealing with differences between the States and The Federal government has to be taken up in a court. Again, both the Federal Government and the government of the States are sovereign within their respected spheres, this is the bases of a Republic. If the Federal Government is "all" sovereign then the States would not be States they would be "colonies" and the Federal Government would be the "Monarchy".

    What Article 1, Section 10 did was to define the scope of the Federal Governments powers and to allow it to enact laws that each State will accept for equal rights under the operation of the Federal Government. The States have tasked the Federal Government these duties to have a "United" Union between States, and not a "sovereign" entity to rule over them. The States created the Federal Government for their benefit, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Terryj; 04-16-19 at 02:56 PM.
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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    Again I'll remind you the the Federal Government is only Sovereign in the powers that the States have ceded to the Federal Government, Article 1, Section 10 defines these powers, all other powers are given to the States.
    Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution does not define the powers of the federal government. It defines the restrictions of power imposed upon the States. What the States are specifically prohibited from doing.

    The entire US Constitution, except for Article I, Section 10, defines the powers of the federal government. Most will often refer to just Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution as the definition of federal power, but it goes much further beyond just those provisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    I'll refer you to the 9th and 10th amendments. The federal government can not interfere with the States government and can not supply any assistance to any State unless the State request aid or assistance.
    The federal government can, and does interfere with State government. The federal government is tasked by the US Constitution to ensure that every State has a republican form of government, as stated in Article IV, Section 4 of the US Constitution:

    The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.
    As I recall, the federal government did a great deal of interfering with State governments during the Civil War. Particularly the southern States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    The only time the federal government can take action in a State without the permission of the State is if the State is in violation of Federal law. All other matters dealing with differences between the States and The Federal government has to be taken up in a court.
    I see. So according to you all the federal entities currently operating in all 50 States, from the US military to the FBI, they are all there in those States operating illegally?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    Again, both the Federal Government and the government of the States are sovereign within their respected spheres, this is the bases of a Republic. If the Federal Government is "all" sovereign then the States would not be States they would be "colonies" and the Federal Government would be the "Monarchy".
    That is not true at all. You cannot have more than one sovereign authority to a nation. In the US that sovereign authority is invested 100% in the federal government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    What Article 1, Section 10 did was to define the scope of the Federal Governments powers and to allow it to enact laws that each State will accept for equal rights under the operation of the Federal Government. The States have tasked the Federal Government these duties to have a "United" Union between States, and not a "sovereign" entity to rule over them. The States created the Federal Government for their benefit, not the other way around.
    What Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution did was to define, in very specific terms, the limitations and restrictions of States. Which removed all vestiges of sovereign authority from the States the moment they ratified the US Constitution.

    You clearly need to read the US Constitution. Pay close attention to the Tenth Amendment:
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. [emphasis added]
    As long as it is not a power specifically granted to the federal government, or a power that is specifically prohibited to the States, then the States can do whatever they please. That doesn't make them sovereign. Only a sovereign authority can enact treaties and make agreements with other nations or coin money. Those powers are specifically prohibited from the States, and always have been since June 21, 1788.


    Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution are those prohibitions to the States to which the Tenth Amendment refers.
    Last edited by Glitch; 04-16-19 at 05:10 PM.

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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You make up your own self justifying crap to excuse unfair rules and procedures defending the Electoral College while the world laughs at us.
    That's alright. I laugh at the world often.

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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
    Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution does not define the powers of the federal government. It defines the restrictions of power imposed upon the States. What the States are specifically prohibited from doing.

    The entire US Constitution, except for Article I, Section 10, defines the powers of the federal government. Most will often refer to just Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution as the definition of federal power, but it goes much further beyond just those provisions.


    The federal government can, and does interfere with State government. The federal government is tasked by the US Constitution to ensure that every State has a republican form of government, as stated in Article IV, Section 4 of the US Constitution:



    As I recall, the federal government did a great deal of interfering with State governments during the Civil War. Particularly the southern States.

    I see. So according to you all the federal entities currently operating in all 50 States, from the US military to the FBI, they are all there in those States operating illegally?

    That is not true at all. You cannot have more than one sovereign authority to a nation. In the US that sovereign authority is invested 100% in the federal government.


    What Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution did was to define, in very specific terms, the limitations and restrictions of States. Which removed all vestiges of sovereign authority from the States the moment they ratified the US Constitution.

    You clearly need to read the US Constitution. Pay close attention to the Tenth Amendment:


    As long as it is not a power specifically granted to the federal government, or a power that is specifically prohibited to the States, then the States can do whatever they please. That doesn't make them sovereign. Only a sovereign authority can enact treaties and make agreements with other nations or coin money. Those powers are specifically prohibited from the States, and always have been since June 21, 1788.


    Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution are those prohibitions to the States to which the Tenth Amendment refers.
    I'd suggest that you take the time to read "Commentaries on the Constitution of The United States", by former Supreme Court Joseph Story.

    I don't know where you took your civics lessons, but you have it backwards.
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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    I'd suggest that you take the time to read "Commentaries on the Constitution of The United States", by former Supreme Court Joseph Story.

    I don't know where you took your civics lessons, but you have it backwards.
    That is pretty funny coming from someone who hasn't even read the US Constitution. ROFL!

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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
    That is pretty funny coming from someone who hasn't even read the US Constitution. ROFL!
    Let me try again to explain this to you, the powers delegated to the Federal Government by the States are just that. The States decided that they need an uniform rule that all States could live by because the AoC had failed, these are found in Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution. The States ceded these powers to the new government that they were creating. There was no federal government that could prohibit the States from exercising their respected powers for the government hadn't been formed yet. So, the States voluntarily gave up those specific powers set forth in the Constitution and in doing so they allowed the Federal Government to create laws in pursuance to these powers, all other powers are reserved to the States, this is where different sovereignty come into play, sovereignty for the new federal government within their delegated powers and sovereignty for the States within the remaining powers not delegated to the federal government.
    Last edited by Terryj; Today at 03:21 PM.
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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    Let me try again to explain this to you, the powers delegated to the Federal Government by the States are just that. The States decided that they need an uniform rule that all States could live by because the AoC had failed, these are found in Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution. The States ceded these powers to the new government that they were creating. There was no federal government that could prohibit the States from exercising their respected powers for the government hadn't been formed yet. So, the States voluntarily gave up those specific powers set forth in the Constitution and in doing so they allowed the Federal Government to create laws in pursuance to these powers, all other powers are reserved to the States, this is where different sovereignty come into play, sovereignty for the new federal government within their delegated powers and sovereignty for the States within the remaining powers not delegated to the federal government.
    The powers delegated to the federal government by the States and Commonwealths are embodied in the US Constitution that they ratified June 21, 1788. Within that document are included specific powers that are prohibited to the States and Commonwealths. That is what Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution is all about. It does not allocate any power to the federal government, it prohibits powers to the States.

    It is specifically Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution that stripped the States and the Commonwealths of their sovereignty and gave it to the federal government on June 21, 1788.

    • No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

    • No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

    • No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.


    --- Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution.
    These are the powers that the Tenth Amendment refers to when it says "...nor prohibited by [the US Constitution] to the States." Besides the above prohibitions, and the powers the US Constitution specifically grants the federal government, the States have the power to do everything else. Such as education, healthcare, and social spending. Those powers were not granted to the federal government by the US Constitution, nor are they prohibited by the US Constitution to the States. Therefore, the power to regulate education, healthcare, and social spending falls exclusively under the power of the States and/or the people, in accordance with the Tenth Amendment.
    Last edited by Glitch; Today at 04:12 PM.

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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
    The powers delegated to the federal government by the States and Commonwealths are embodied in the US Constitution that they ratified June 21, 1788. Within that document are included specific powers that are prohibited to the States and Commonwealths. That is what Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution is all about. It does not allocate any power to the federal government, it prohibits powers to the States.

    It is specifically Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution that stripped the States and the Commonwealths of their sovereignty and gave it to the federal government on June 21, 1788.



    These are the powers that the Tenth Amendment refers to when it says "...nor prohibited by [the US Constitution] to the States." Besides the above prohibitions, and the powers the US Constitution specifically grants the federal government, the States have the power to do everything else. Such as education, healthcare, and social spending. Those powers were not granted to the federal government by the US Constitution, nor are they prohibited by the US Constitution to the States. Therefore, the power to regulate education, healthcare, and social spending falls exclusively under the power of the States and/or the people, in accordance with the Tenth Amendment.
    You are correct, however, the States made those prohibitions to impose upon themselves, for those were powers needed for the new government. That doesn't mean that the federal government was sovereign over the States, if you look at these powers they are controlled by the Senate, and the Senate was the voice of the States.
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    Re: The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    You are correct, however, the States made those prohibitions to impose upon themselves, for those were powers needed for the new government. That doesn't mean that the federal government was sovereign over the States, if you look at these powers they are controlled by the Senate, and the Senate was the voice of the States.
    Actually, that is precisely what it means. The States gave the federal government complete sovereign authority when they ratified the US Constitution. That didn't mean the States gave the federal government all of their authority, just their sovereign authority. Which the federal government needed, because you can only have one sovereign authority in a nation. The EU and UN, for example, have no sovereign authority. So they cannot make treaties, coin money, declare wars, etc. all the powers associated with sovereignty.

    When the States ratified the US Constitution they stripped themselves of their sovereign authority and invested it in the federal government. The States retained all their other authority, or so they should according to the Tenth Amendment, just not their sovereign authority or the other powers they specifically granted to the federal government.

    Yet some of that power is shared between the States and the federal government. For example, under Article IV, Section 3 of the US Constitution Congress cannot create a new State if it adjoins an existing State without the consent of the State legislatures of the State(s) involved. Article IV of the US Constitution would also confirm that the federal government is sovereign over the States since only Congress has the power "to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States."

    The Civil War confirmed that. States may not leave the Union of their own volition. They must obtain the express approval of Congress and the President.

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