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An Argument in Support of the Electoral College.

Captain Adverse

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We hear much outrage over the existence of the Electoral College system, because the current President lost the Popular vote by the largest margin in any prior situation. (There were four: George W. Bush 2000; Benjamin Harrison 1888; Rutherford Hayes 1876; John Q. Adams 1824).

People cry "Outmoded system! A national popular vote should elect a President!" That the USA is a Democracy and the Electoral college is a barrier between the will of the people and the holder of the office. That the 12 Amendment created the problem and did not go far enough to solve it.

IMO that thought process is wrong; and I point out the following:

1. Our nation is called a Republic because after the Revolution there were 13 "Colonies" which became independent "States" under a loose Articles of Confederation. Those "States" later opted for closer ties under the Constitution, but still considered themselves sovereign. This is where the Secession argument that eventually led to the Civil War came from.

2. The Electoral College was established under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution. NOT the "12th Amendment."

3. There were four elections before the 12 Amendment rectified a problem originating with the development of political parties, resulting in two candidates from the same Party tying for President. It was not an attempt to make things "more democratic," but simply to clear up which candidate held which office.

4. Despite the Civil War, our nation remains a union of "Sovereign States." The only element of government that was originally designed to be Democratic was the House of Representatives. Recall "No Taxation Without Representation?" Article I allowed for citizens to vote directly for those elected representatives that had the power to tax and spend. The Senate and the Presidency remained the purview of the State's to choose, and the Electoral College was the method for selecting the President.

5. Senators were not elected by "popular vote" until the 17th Amendment was ratified in 1913. Their purpose has not changed however, there are still only 2 per State elected to represent each State in approving government appointments, treaties, appropriation bills coming from the House, etc.

6. The Presidency was always designed to represent the entire Nation, not just the most populous States. The holder of that office is supposed to consider even the least populated State when deciding whether or not to veto laws passed by Congress. If elected by purely popular vote, then States like New York and California would be the focus of all attention and decide the fate of all the other States in this Union.

Now despite the claim that the Civil War put an "end to the secession argument," nothing could be further from the truth. :no:

The Declaration of Independence states that revolution is a basic right of those oppressed by government tyranny.

The greatest fear among the Founding Fathers was central government tyranny, either that of a monarchy or that of a popular majority. The leaders of our nation with few exceptions preferred a Republic with checks and balances over a pure Democracy. Looking at our society today, I find that many of our citizens fail to see the problems with pure Democracy without such checks. Those who tend to argue for it are those who want to use current popular trends to impose their ideologies on the rest who do not agree.

The problem is that they failed to see two classic issues; one that this system can be eventually turned against them as popular opinions change, and the other is that it can easily lead to a populist dictatorship ala Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Leninist Russia, Islamist Indonesia, etc., etc..

Our process is designed to elect the President via State, not Popular voting. The number of electors is determined by State population, giving each State one elector for each Senator and House Representative slot it has. That means each States has at least 3 votes for President. This means that no State can be completely ignored simply because of it's lower population level.

The Constitution leaves it up to each State to decide how their Electors are allocated. The "winner-take-all" rule most States use is a State choice, and if you don't like it lobby to change it. I personally prefer the district award system used by Maine and Nebraska, where each House District gets one elector while the 2 Senate electors are given to the popular vote majority winner in each State.

My argument is that the Electoral College is the last barrier to Tyranny of the Majority in America. That it is one of the wisest things our Founders devised to prevent it. Otherwise, we might be looking at constant civil revolts, and efforts to secede via outright civil war as smaller populated states, or even larger populated states with differing political leans (Texas as opposed to California) decide union is too oppressive and independence might be better.
 
The one point that Electoral College-lovers consistently are unable to rebut is that yes, we understand "Tyranny of the Majority" is bad.

It does not then follow that the Electoral College system is sensible, nor does it make "Tyranny of the Minority" good.

There's absolutely no convincing argument that living in a more sparsely populated state demands an individual have more voting/electoral power than someone in a more densely populated state. None ****ing whatsoever. Especially when people in the same state don't even vote as a ****ing bloc.
 
The one point that Electoral College-lovers consistently are unable to rebut is that yes, we understand "Tyranny of the Majority" is bad.

It does not then follow that the Electoral College system is sensible, nor does it make "Tyranny of the Minority" good.

There's absolutely no convincing argument that living in a more sparsely populated state demands an individual have more voting/electoral power than someone in a more densely populated state. None ****ing whatsoever. Especially when people in the same state don't even vote as a ****ing bloc.

I think CA actually mentioned a solution for that. There are versions of it in place in Maine and Nebraska. The "winner take all" thing is really what makes the EC bad.
 
the EC failed to protect us from a dangerously unfit for office candidate like Trump. i have defended it in the past for this and for other reasons. i now support an effort to get rid of it, as it doesn't work as intended.
 
The electoral college is fine. But they didn't do their duty when they ratified the election of Trump.

The purpose of the electoral college included stopping someone like Trump from becoming president.



Edit: what Helix said
 
The same bad arguments.

1. Under a popular vote system, states don't vote. Arguing that "State X will determine the outcome" is a conceit of the Electoral College system, not a popular vote. The concept means nothing when every citizen, regardless of geography, is given an equal say in the selection of the president.

2. Small states do not inherently have a say under the EC. Nobody cares about Delaware or Wyoming in a general election any more than they care about California or New York. All are irrelevant. Swing states are what matter under the EC.

3. The protection the EC offered from tyranny of the majority was based on the design of a temporary body, independent of external obligations, that made the decision regardless of popular opinion. The EC as it functions today aggregates state-level popular votes and electors are partisans chosen specifically for their lack of autonomy.
 
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the EC failed to protect us from a dangerously unfit for office candidate like Trump. i have defended it in the past for this and for other reasons. i now support an effort to get rid of it, as it doesn't work as intended.

It worked exactly as intended. Power was wrested from the costal elites who have been selling out middle America for thirty years!

The left really needs to learn to work within the system rather than try to change it when they lose.
 
I think CA actually mentioned a solution for that. There are versions of it in place in Maine and Nebraska. The "winner take all" thing is really what makes the EC bad.

That's only a part of it, another part is that very small states (population-wise) have an inordinate number of votes in comparison to their population. It makes absolutely zero sense that the state of Wyoming has more of a say in picking the President than the city of Washington, DC
 
The electoral college is fine. But they didn't do their duty when they ratified the election of Trump.

The purpose of the electoral college included stopping someone like Trump from becoming president.



Edit: what Helix said

Stopping a legitimately elected president whom you don't like from assuming office is not a duty of the EC.

[h=2]What are the Roles and Responsibilities of the Designated Parties in the Electoral College Process?[/h]
Responsibilities of the ElectorsOn the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December (December 19, 2016), the electors meet in their respective States to cast their votes for President and Vice President of the United States. Read more about the qualifications and selection of the Electors and restrictions, if any, on how they may vote.
Responsibilities of the States in the Presidential Election
The Constitution of the United States and Federal law place certain Presidential election responsibilities on State executives and the electors for President and Vice President.
These instructions have been prepared by the National Archives and Records Administration’s Office of the Federal Register under the authority of 3 U.S.C. 6, 11, 12, and 13 to assist the States in performing their duties. In these instructions, the term “Governor” includes the Mayor of the District of Columbia and the term “State” includes the District of Columbia.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/roles.html
 
the EC failed to protect us from a dangerously unfit for office candidate like Trump. i have defended it in the past for this and for other reasons. i now support an effort to get rid of it, as it doesn't work as intended.

It works EXACTLY as intended. He ran a campaign aimed at collecting Electoral votes. His opponent ran on gaining the popular vote.

She won most of the heavily populated States, He won a couple of those (Texas and Florida) and most of all the rest.

That is exactly what the EC was designed for. As a result Trump is a President who won most States and so represents the prevailing views of most States.

Your argument seems to be that since New York City NY, Los Angeles and San Francisco CA, and Chicago IL to name a few have large populations who hate him, that makes his election via the EC a bad thing.

My question is, why should those pockets of special interest groups hold sway over the rest of the United States?
 
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the EC failed to protect us from a dangerously unfit for office candidate like Trump. i have defended it in the past for this and for other reasons. i now support an effort to get rid of it, as it doesn't work as intended.

LOL!!!!!!

Because you didn't get your way?

Is this just a rant against Trump, or are you just that wishy washy?
 
The EC was not designed to impact campaign strategy.

No. It was designed to insure that ALL STATES had some actual effect on electing the Chief Executive of the USA.

Just because one candidate forgot this (like most people who argue popular vote...keep forgetting how many people did not even vote) and the other designed his campaign based on this fact, does not change the purpose of the EC one jot.
 
That's only a part of it, another part is that very small states (population-wise) have an inordinate number of votes in comparison to their population. It makes absolutely zero sense that the state of Wyoming has more of a say in picking the President than the city of Washington, DC

It only make "zero sense" because you ignored not only the points in my OP, but actual American history since the founding of this nation.

Study up a bit, then your confusion might be alleviated. ;)
 
the EC failed to protect us from a dangerously unfit for office candidate like Trump. i have defended it in the past for this and for other reasons. i now support an effort to get rid of it, as it doesn't work as intended.

The EC did no such thing. EC worked as intended. It prevented a couple of highly populated areas from controlling the rest.

President Trump is dangerously unfit only in the opinions of those who voted for the other guy. Fortunately there are a couple remedies. Impeach if you can, or unelect if you can. President Trump will not be impeached. I don't like him is not an impeachable offense. That leaves unelect. That should be the left's focus. It isn't.
 
The EC was not designed to impact campaign strategy.

Designed? Possibly not. That does not mean that it won't affect campaign strategy.

Hillary and the DNC preferred the high population areas where she already had the votes instead of the 3 vote states who's voters she deemed deplorables. The 3 vote states won.
 
No. It was designed to insure that ALL STATES had some actual effect on electing the Chief Executive of the USA.

It was intended to benefit slave-heavy states by allowing the "three fifths of all other Persons" that counted toward apportionment to also increase the state's influence in the selection of the president. Something that wouldn't be true under a popular vote system in which those "all other Persons" wouldn't have suffrage.

The state with by far the largest number of slaves in 1790 also happened to be the same state with the largest population of free white males. And that state also happened to produce all of the presidents but one for the first thirty-six years of the republic. (The other two presidents in the first forty years of the republic were from the third most populous state.)

So either your history is wrong (it is) or the EC was broken right out of the gate.
 
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Designed? Possibly not. That does not mean that it won't affect campaign strategy.

Hillary and the DNC preferred the high population areas where she already had the votes instead of the 3 vote states who's voters she deemed deplorables. The 3 vote states won.

Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan are not three vote states. And they are all that mattered in the end.

There were zero visits to any of the eight 3-vote states in the 2016 general election by either candidate.
 
It was intended to benefit slave-heavy states by allowing the "three fifths of all other Persons" that counted toward apportionment to also increase the state's influence in the selection of the president. Something that wouldn't be true under a popular vote system in which those "all other Persons" wouldn't have suffrage.

The state with by far the largest number of slaves in 1790 also happened to be the same state with the largest population of free white males. And that state also happened to produce all of the presidents but one for the first thirty-six years of the republic. (The other two presidents in the first forty years of the republic were from the third most populous state.)

So either your history is wrong (it is) or the EC was broken right out of the gate.

That Virginia produced most of the early presidents does not mean the electoral college was broken.
 
That Virginia produced most of the early presidents does not mean the electoral college was broken.

If your argument is that its primary purpose was to prevent the largest states from dictating the process, it was.
 
If your argument is that its primary purpose was to prevent the largest states from dictating the process, it was.

I made no argument other than that the fact that Va produced the majority of the early presidents does not necessarily mean the system was broken.
 
That's only a part of it, another part is that very small states (population-wise) have an inordinate number of votes in comparison to their population. It makes absolutely zero sense that the state of Wyoming has more of a say in picking the President than the city of Washington, DC

Yeah, I know. That's an problem with Senators as well. It took not only that, but the 3/5ths "compromise" to get all of the states to ratify. As long as it provides some monied interests an advantage, it will stay.

The idea that state lines mean much now is a little crazy. There are several major cities that straddle borders. We are more regionally divided than anything else these days.
 
It was intended to benefit slave-heavy states by allowing the "three fifths of all other Persons" that counted toward apportionment to also increase the state's influence in the selection of the president. Something that wouldn't be true under a popular vote system in which those "all other Persons" wouldn't have suffrage.

The state with by far the largest number of slaves in 1790 also happened to be the same state with the largest population of free white males. And that state also happened to produce all of the presidents but one for the first thirty-six years of the republic. (The other two presidents in the first forty years of the republic were from the third most populous state.)

So either your history is wrong (it is) or the EC was broken right out of the gate.

Your "revisionist" opinion of history is wrong.

The discussions during the various Conventions and among the leading men of the time were about State's rights (in all sorts of ways) as among sovereign States who could secede at any time, and insurance that the executive would not be selected by the mob leading to a dictator or a king.

So of the two options, the closest to possibility (which is still not true) would be "Door #2 Monty."

I don't think it was broken out of the gate. :no:

Rather I think it was a well-considered compromise among learned men of that time who were thinking not only of the "then" they were living in, but of the future of the nation.
 
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My argument is that the Electoral College is the last barrier to Tyranny of the Majority in America. That it is one of the wisest things our Founders devised to prevent it. Otherwise, we might be looking at constant civil revolts, and efforts to secede via outright civil war as smaller populated states, or even larger populated states with differing political leans (Texas as opposed to California) decide union is too oppressive and independence might be better.

You say that like it's a bad thing. People should oppose those that try to enslave them.
 
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