• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Thought experiment on the Second Amendment

You have yet to provide any examples to support that (1st bolded above) assertion (currently some rifles, shotguns and handguns are currently legal) and thus must resort to the (2nd bolded above) assertion to deflect from that fact.

Technology is not going to stop. But what you need to just protect your person and your home/family does. People can't just any crazy thing they want in the name of protecting themselves and their home against potential government tyranny. Or because they need it to target-practice on their weekends.


The final assertion (3rd bolded above) requires the repeal of the 2A.

Yes I know. It's already obsolete and requiring too many exceptions and footnotes. It's something we need to start talking about. We already got rid of the 3/5 voting law. Not sure why this is so much more sacrosanct.
 
Last edited:
The point of this thread was that technology is the game changer in what "arms" means in the 2A and why an unrestricted interpretation of it is obsolete. A modern soldier today can easily carry as much effective firepower as an entire colonial army in the 18th century. There is no reason not to think that in another century or so, a soldier of that time will similarly be able to carry as much firepower as an army today.

But at some point, it gets crazy for any crazy person in the public to be able to carry any crazy such thing in public.

I think you are exaggerating a bit regarding the firepower of a single rifleman today, considering the peak of the Continental Army was between 25-30 thousand soldiers ( estimates vary slightly)….but lets not get hung up on that; rather, lets consider the notion of creating laws or repealing the Second amendment simply because you think there might be a technological jump, or you think some people will abuse it based on technology that does not yet exist.

This is the real world....not Sci Fi...its not Minority Report, and we do not have a Bureau of Pre Crime Apprehension or Pre crime legislature for the future.
 
So you think it's OK that full auto weapons are currently regulated? If so, why are those OK to regulate but not semiautos with bump stocks? If not, what common lawful purpose is there for full autos?

And with more and more powerful weapons technology, why wouldn't there be new "lawful" uses for such weapons as they become available?

I am not in agreement with the 'regulation' (enforced by a ridiculous tax) of full autos or short barreled rifles/shotguns - the logic behind that moronic law (which did not apply to criminals, BTW) was that they were the tools of criminal gangs. Obviously, if that "logic" was used then any gun used by criminals (suicide is a crime too?) could be similarly 'regulated' out of reach by most folks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
 
I think you are exaggerating a bit regarding the firepower of a single rifleman today, considering the peak of the Continental Army was between 25-30 thousand soldiers ( estimates vary slightly)….but lets not get hung up on that; rather, lets consider the notion of creating laws or repealing the Second amendment simply because you think there might be a technological jump, or you think some people will abuse it based on technology that does not yet exist.

This is the real world....not Sci Fi...its not Minority Report, and we do not have a Bureau of Pre Crime Apprehension or Pre crime legislature for the future.

Soldiers today are not "riflemen", LOL. They have a little more firepower than that. Let's just say that one well-armed, well-trained Navy Seal Today could easily take on maybe around 200 colonial soldiers armed with the old front loading muskets. Not sure why it would be such a stretch to imagine that trend won't continue.

And you don't have to be living in sci fi to recognize that technology grows. You think we will be having the same weapons technology we have today in 50 years' time? 100 years' time? LOL.
 
Last edited:
No I did not miss the point. My point is that whatever the arms a "common infantryman" carries as basic issue for mustering (not ordinance, not crew served, etc.) should be fair game for the common citizen who would be called on to fight for (or against) his country.

If that means a "pulse laser in the 40-watt range" ala Terminator (1991), then so be it.

What if infantrymen did not exist anymore ? The development of cyber warfare and drones hint that the wars of the future may not require boots on the ground anymore.
 
I am not in agreement with the 'regulation' (enforced by a ridiculous tax) of full autos or short barreled rifles/shotguns - the logic behind that moronic law (which did not apply to criminals, BTW) was that they were the tools of criminal gangs. Obviously, if that "logic" was used then any gun used by criminals (suicide is a crime too?) could be similarly 'regulated' out of reach by most folks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

If you can come up with "lawful reason" why anyone would need a full auto, I am sure you can come up with lawful reasons for that pocket-sized tank artillery too.
 
If you can come up with "lawful reason" why anyone would need a full auto, I am sure you can come up with lawful reasons for that pocket-sized tank artillery too.

Why do police have "need" for them? Are the criminals that police face different than the criminals that others face?

When restrictive gun laws require exceptions for police (including retired and off-duty LEOs) then they have gone too far.
 
Last edited:
Soldiers today are not "riflemen", LOL. They have a little more firepower than that. Let's just say that one well-armed, well-trained Navy Seal Today could easily take on maybe around 200 colonial soldiers armed with the old front loading muskets. Not sure why it would be such a stretch to imagine that trend won't continue.

And you don't have to be living in sci fi to recognize that technology grows. You think we will be having the same weapons technology we have today in 50 years' time? 100 years' time? LOL.

Actually, during my 23 years in the United States Army, that was and is exactly their title, "Rifleman", MOS 11Bravo; the same title the British Infantry I currently work with here in Afghanistan bestow upon their Soldiers...as for the 200:1 scenario, I think you should leave that to Hollywood and bad fiction.

Gunpowder and projectiles have existed in one form or another since about the 10th century; to be sure, they have been refined since then, but the concept remains essentially unchanged; and looks to remain basically the same for a while yet to come.

When we start fielding the first practical Man Portable directed energy systems or some such capable of melting a tank, I will be a bit more concerned.
 
Gunpowder and projectiles have existed in one form or another since about the 10th century; to be sure, they have been refined since then, but the concept remains essentially unchanged; and looks to remain basically the same for a while yet to come.

Maybe so. Maybe not. But the point is that the technology continues to improve, quickly and in often unexpected ways. Those scientists and engineers are pretty clever folks. And that is the game changer here.
 
Last edited:
Why do police have "need" for them? Are the criminals that police face different than the criminals that others face?

When restrictive gun laws require exceptions for police (including retired and off-duty LEOs) then they have gone too far.

Police are screened for mental health disorders, and well trained for the weapons they use. They are accountable for their use of such weapons. And the more powerful the weapons they get to use, the more the training and accountability requirements. That is a world away from any Joe Public crazy guy having no restrictions and no required training and no accountability on what he can buy and how and where he can use it in the name of "freedom", which is the NRA position.

If the police have to have that kind of screening, training, and accountability to use such weapons, I am not sure why the average guy on the street should be exempt.
 
Last edited:
Police are screened for mental health disorders, and well trained for the weapons they use. And the more powerful the weapons they get to use, the more the training requirements. That is a world away from any Joe Public crazy guy having no restrictions and no required training on what he can buy and how and where he can use it, which is the NRA position.

If the police have to have that kind of screening and training to use such weapons, I am not sure why the average guy on the street should be exempt.

I think that you have misjudged the NRA's position concerning a requirement for training. Not only does the NRA offer such training they lobby to have it become a mandatory prerequisite to get CHL and CCW permits. I'm not sure what you mean by screening but that has more to do with adding the power to arrest (beyond that of normal citizen) than any special ability to carry a gun.
 
Yeah, I bet people will think twice about cutting you off in traffic anymore. You know what they say: “an armed society is a polite society”!

When my old beat up thumper of a truck merges onto the highway on ramp all those luxury cars just sorta move it on over cause they KNOW I'm not insured.

I don't see any mass murders being conducted at gun ranges. They prefer soft, unarmed targets, like schools, daycare, night clubs, churches, theaters......... like your house.
 
With advancing technology, you might be able to carry 10 times the firepower of a Panzer.... on a keychain in your front pocket! But if you make any moves to regulate that, that will be the first slippery slope to government taking away your kitchen knives too! So be very careful!

keychain power?.....nah, doesn't appeal to me. I'm old school. That Panzer IV would be just about perfect. And they can have the kitchen knives any time they want. They're not near the fun of a Sharps 45-70. Now that's some good times!!!
 
That’s the whole “slippery slope” argument of the NRA: any talk of any regulation on any crazy weapon is the first step towards full confiscation of all arms.

So you don’t buy it, huh?

I dont buy what you just wrote at all. Nor does the NRA take that position re: any crazy weapon.
 
they take more than one person to operate effectively.

First, drones and much other modern weaponry are highly computerized to the point where they only take one person to really run them. So this is false. Or to put it more realistically, a surface to air missile capable of downing a 747 can be fired from the ground with a bazooka. I hope you're still not delusional enough to think those should available for purchase at Walmart.

Second, you're ignoring the larger point. If the purpose of these weapons is to defend yourself against a tyrannical government then your fight would be worthless without these more advanced weapons. If the United States military were ever being led by a tyrannical dictator they would be capable of blowing your ragged band of freedom fighters away from hundreds of miles away, and you would never see it coming.

The Second Amendment was written in a time where the United States did not have a standing army of its own, and technology would have made it virtually impossible to deploy a centralized army quickly at any amount of distance. In those days it was frequently necessary for local authorities to quickly deputize a posse of men or activate a local militia to defend local assets to stop any kind of uprising before it was able to gain traction. That is not remotely true anymore.

Every state has a national guard and state police. Federal agents or even military personnel could be deployed to any part of the country in less than 24 hours if needs are.

The need for this amendment doesn't exist anymore.
 
keychain power?.....nah, doesn't appeal to me. I'm old school. That Panzer IV would be just about perfect. And they can have the kitchen knives any time they want. They're not near the fun of a Sharps 45-70. Now that's some good times!!!

I see. So you're a bit of an antique collector. And that's fine. But just because you like '57 Chevies doesn't mean we should stop all further discussion on new concept vehicles coming out of car companies these days, and which should be considered street legal, and which ones should be regulated and kept off the road.
 
I dont buy what you just wrote at all. Nor does the NRA take that position re: any crazy weapon.

Well your friends here certainly do. They are telling me they believe the 2A means you should be free to own your own Panzer tank with live ammo. You disagree?
 
I think that you have misjudged the NRA's position concerning a requirement for training. Not only does the NRA offer such training they lobby to have it become a mandatory prerequisite to get CHL and CCW permits. I'm not sure what you mean by screening but that has more to do with adding the power to arrest (beyond that of normal citizen) than any special ability to carry a gun.

Mandatory? Who's going to make it mandatory, and who's going to enforce that? Government? Is that what you are seriously advocating here? Are you are saying that's what the NRA is seriously advocating? Seriously? :lamo

Come on, man. This is supposed to be a serious discussion.
 
Last edited:
If you guys are approaching this through the "natural rights" argument, the "natural right" is to be able to defend your home and self. But usually just a small modern day handgun is more than enough for that.

But as soon as I say that, then you guys get into the argument that you need to be able to defend yourself against the entire US government if it ever gets tyrannical on you. But then that's going to require Apache attack helicopters and modern tanks (the old Panzers won't cut it, sorry. They will just be target practice for modern technology).

So you are left trying to defend semiautomatic assault weapons with bump stocks as a sort of happy medium: that's admitting that SOME sane limits must be drawn. But it's way too much to defend your home, and way too little to defend against the big evil feds. So it's left as a rather awkward argument.

And then, of course, we are left with the argument of "I don't have to justify or have a reason for what weapon I want to buy", which, of course, undermines BOTH the arguments above.

Awkward!
 
When my old beat up thumper of a truck merges onto the highway on ramp all those luxury cars just sorta move it on over cause they KNOW I'm not insured.

I don't see any mass murders being conducted at gun ranges. They prefer soft, unarmed targets, like schools, daycare, night clubs, churches, theaters......... like your house.

Which is funny, because it turns out that homes with guns in them get broken into more, not less, often than those without (guns are considered valuable items much like big screen TVs and jewelry). And when they do get broken into, the incidence of injury or death to the homeowner is more, not less, frequent.

Sometimes science and observations are counterintuitive. That's why we have studies and science. And maybe that's why the NRA has lobbied to stop all further funding to them. It looked like it may have hurt their advertising campaign of fear and anxiety.

But hey, there is always those brown and black people we have to protect ourselves against, right?
 
First, drones and much other modern weaponry are highly computerized to the point where they only take one person to really run them. So this is false. Or to put it more realistically, a surface to air missile capable of downing a 747 can be fired from the ground with a bazooka. I hope you're still not delusional enough to think those should available for purchase at Walmart.

Second, you're ignoring the larger point. If the purpose of these weapons is to defend yourself against a tyrannical government then your fight would be worthless without these more advanced weapons. If the United States military were ever being led by a tyrannical dictator they would be capable of blowing your ragged band of freedom fighters away from hundreds of miles away, and you would never see it coming.

The Second Amendment was written in a time where the United States did not have a standing army of its own, and technology would have made it virtually impossible to deploy a centralized army quickly at any amount of distance. In those days it was frequently necessary for local authorities to quickly deputize a posse of men or activate a local militia to defend local assets to stop any kind of uprising before it was able to gain traction. That is not remotely true anymore.

Every state has a national guard and state police. Federal agents or even military personnel could be deployed to any part of the country in less than 24 hours if needs are.

The need for this amendment doesn't exist anymore.

Really?

First:

1. A surface-to-air missile is not fired from a "bazooka." A bazooka was an old school anti-armor weapon, initially replaced in the U.S. arsenal by the single-shot LAW, the Dragon wire-guided missile system, and recently the Javelin fire-and-forget missile. Surface-to-air systems like the Stinger are used against aircraft.

2. Missiles are "ordinance." Ordinance in military terms includes weapons and supplies issued on an as-needed basis. They include explosives (grenades, bombs, etc.), supplies (rations, tools, etc.), missiles, etc.

The Second Amendment refers to those "arms" (weapons and supplies) an individual would be expected to maintain and report for duty with, as exemplified by the Militia regulations of the time. They do not include crew-served systems, area effect weapons, or single-use ordinance (aside from a basic load of ammunition). Yes, there were "exceptions" for businesses like our "merchant marine" ship owners whose Captains were expected to defend their property from pirates and privateers in international waters. There were also a few wealthy persons who owned cannons.

However, the expectation of the common citizen was a firearm, and a certain amount of ball and powder; cavalry personnel added saber and pistol.

Second:

The Second Amendment was written by people whose citizen-peers had been fighting a regular army for eight years, and expected future generations of citizen militia to be as well-armed as any other foreign or possibly tyrannous Federal government they might face.

The value of this ability has been demonstrated time and again against our own army in places like Vietnam and Afghanistan, to name just two obvious examples. Technology can only go so far against an armed and dedicated guerilla force. Meanwhile, the best example was in our own Revolution, where armed citizens faced the mightiest professional army of the time and eventually won, regardless of naysayers who even today argue for all sorts of reasons that it was a fluke.

It is as appropriate today as it ever was back then, especially in light of the Progressive-Left push for more authoritarian forms of government in order to compel free citizens to adhere to their control. The fact that you argue so strongly against this right demonstrates your own concern for it's effective use, simply because any argument that states categorically "it would not be effective against a modern army" begs the question; i.e. "If this is true, why worry about citizens being armed who have no chance of success anyway?"
 
Last edited:
Have you heard something? Walmart sells nukes now? Do they require a permit? Is there a limit per customer?

BTW; tanks aren't restricted. You, too, can buy one. I've always thought they would be great for paintball. You know, tank battles, paintball.

I don't believe this **** for a second, because you can't even get .22 LR at Walmart. They're always out. :lamo
 
First, drones and much other modern weaponry are highly computerized to the point where they only take one person to really run them. So this is false. Or to put it more realistically, a surface to air missile capable of downing a 747 can be fired from the ground with a bazooka. I hope you're still not delusional enough to think those should available for purchase at Walmart.

Second, you're ignoring the larger point. If the purpose of these weapons is to defend yourself against a tyrannical government then your fight would be worthless without these more advanced weapons. If the United States military were ever being led by a tyrannical dictator they would be capable of blowing your ragged band of freedom fighters away from hundreds of miles away, and you would never see it coming.

The Second Amendment was written in a time where the United States did not have a standing army of its own, and technology would have made it virtually impossible to deploy a centralized army quickly at any amount of distance. In those days it was frequently necessary for local authorities to quickly deputize a posse of men or activate a local militia to defend local assets to stop any kind of uprising before it was able to gain traction. That is not remotely true anymore.

Every state has a national guard and state police. Federal agents or even military personnel could be deployed to any part of the country in less than 24 hours if needs are.

The need for this amendment doesn't exist anymore.

Tell me how easy it is going for our military in Afghanistan.
 
I see. So you're a bit of an antique collector. And that's fine. But just because you like '57 Chevies doesn't mean we should stop all further discussion on new concept vehicles coming out of car companies these days, and which should be considered street legal, and which ones should be regulated and kept off the road.

I sure wish the anti-gun crowd made such distinctions. I would be great if the gun grabbers were content with just restricting nukes or key chain ray guns and leave me and my stuff alone. But they won't be happy until all guns are heavily regulated or outlawed. So yeah, a line in the sand is the best approach when dealing with them.
 
Back
Top Bottom