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Democracy V Republic

Rich2018 said:
IIRC what he said was reflected in the text books he referenced.


Calling Nazis "fascists" is over simplification and factually wrong.
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Are you are also saying that calling the US republic a democracy an over simplification and factually wrong?
 
Vadinho said:
I got it. You have nothing but want to move the conversation as I pummel you.
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Soon hes going to bet you $10K that you cant prove him wrong. He of course will not pay when you do. By my calculations he owes about 1.2 million to various posters by now
 
Quag said:
Soon hes going to bet you $10K that you cant prove him wrong. He of course will not pay when you do. By my calculations he owes about 1.2 million to various posters by now
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I think he is just another version of that conservative poster, same stuff over and over again.
 
Vadinho said:
I think he is just another version of that conservative poster, same stuff over and over again.
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Possibly but as his syntax is rather odd sometimes (not as bad as his early posts) I think we are looking at someone east of the Ukraine
 
Rich2018 said:
IIRC what he said was reflected in the text books he referenced.


Calling Nazis "fascists" is over simplification and factually wrong.
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No, not really, they are fascists and nazi's at the same time. Fascism is:

radical (check for the nazi's)

right wing (check for the nazi's)

authoritarian (check for the nazi's)

ultra nationalist (check for the nazi's)

characterized by:

dictatorial power (check for the nazi's)

forcible oppression of opposition (check for the nazi's)

strong regimentation in society and economy (check for the nazi's)

one party states (check for the nazi's)

against liberal democracy (check for the nazi's)

dictators (check for the nazi's)

anti progressive (check for the nazi's)

It is absolutely factually right to say that nazi's were fascists but they were also more than just regular fascists, they were also virulently anti-semitic and had a leader who had delusions of grandeur. But it was still fascism plus.
 
ElChupacabra said:
at some point the goal posts will shift to talk about slavery being abolished when the US was founded.
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Well it was almost exactly the same same point...those 70-80 years are just a blink of the eye since slavery has existed for about one million years.
 
Rich2018 said:
No the USA is a representative democracy.

It is also a republic.
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Good you understand the concept

Fascism covers all forms of extreme right wing anti-democratic, ultranationalist, xenophobic, militaristic ideologies. Nazism is a specific form of fascism
 
Peter King said:
No, not really, they are fascists and nazi's at the same time. Fascism is:

radical (check for the nazi's)

right wing (check for the nazi's)

authoritarian (check for the nazi's)

ultra nationalist (check for the nazi's)

characterized by:

dictatorial power (check for the nazi's)

forcible oppression of opposition (check for the nazi's)

strong regimentation in society and economy (check for the nazi's)

one party states (check for the nazi's)

against liberal democracy (check for the nazi's)

dictators (check for the nazi's)

anti progressive (check for the nazi's)

It is absolutely factually right to say that nazi's were fascists but they were also more than just regular fascists, they were also virulently anti-semitic and had a leader who had delusions of grandeur. But it was still fascism plus.
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Pretty much all of that also applies the Mao's China and Stalin's USSR


Can you give examples of Nazi Germany's "strong regimentation in society and economy" ?
How was the Germany economy "strongly regimented" under the Nazis ? (or are you speaking about the wartime economy?)



What is the definition of "right wing" ?


Can you give examples of the Nazis being "anti-progressive ?
Would that include building the Autobahn network?
How about investing in manufacturing - with the goal of full employment plus the construction of hospitals and schools
Or investing in agriculture with the goal of making Germany self sufficient
Or the scheme to allow workers to buy a Volkswagen Beetle car for a small weekly payment
How about Nazi policies promoting animal welfare
How about Nazi policies to protect the environment ?


Animal welfare in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia


I think you're from the school of "If the Nazis did it, it must be bad".
 
Quag said:
Good you understand the concept

Fascism covers all forms of extreme right wing anti-democratic, ultranationalist, xenophobic, militaristic ideologies. Nazism is a specific form of fascism
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So Mao and Stalin were "fascists" ?
 
Rich2018 said:
So Mao and Stalin were "fascists" ?
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You seem confused on this, communism isn't ultranationalist in fact its anti-nationalist as it was pro world govt and they weren't xenophobes they didn't believe their "race" was inherently superior
 
Rich2018 said:
Pretty much all of that also applies the Mao's China and Stalin's USSR
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Nope, not everything, the biggest thing that communist countries do not have extreme nationalistic tendencies. They are by the very nature internationalist (that is why their song is "die Internationale" (international)

Rich2018 said:
Can you give examples of Nazi Germany's "strong regimentation in society and economy" ?
How was the Germany economy "strongly regimented" under the Nazis ? (or are you speaking about the wartime economy?)
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You are asking me for examples of strong regimentation in society? And economy?

Well, let us see

Hitlerjugend (Hitler youth)

Bund Deutscher Mädel (League for young girls) and the Jungmädelbund (young girls league) the first for girls from 14-18 year old girls and the JM was part of the Hitler Youth and was for girls aged 10 to 14.

Young people were forced to join these 2 organizations upon. Not a free choice.

The same went for getting women to have children, to promote the creation of as many racially pure babies the Lebensborn project (born alive) was created to have SS soldiers breed with good Germanic girls to create as many babies as possible.

Also under the civilian population women were spurred on to have as many Germanic babies as was possible, giving out medals for women who had a certain number of babies.

The nazi privatized companies who had been nationalized during the bad economy of the Weimar republic. These companies however were privatized in a framework in which the government had increasing control over the businesses through regulation and political interference.

The Nazis privatized some public services which had been previously provided by the government, especially social and labor-related services, and these were mainly taken over by organizations affiliated with the Nazi Party that could be trusted to apply Nazi racial policies. The government determined who could work in companies (no Jews allowed). They also sold companies to feed the war machine. In exchange for funds for the Nazi party, the managers of German companies were given unprecedented control over their workers, collective bargaining was banned, wages were frozen at a low wage level.

The Nazis granted millions of marks in credits to private businesses. Many businessmen had friendly relations to the Nazis,[56] most notably with Heinrich Himmler and his Freundeskreis der Wirtschaft. Hitler’s administration decreed an October 1937 policy that “dissolved all corporations with a capital under $40,000 and forbade the establishment of new ones with a capital less than $200,000,” which swiftly effected the collapse of one fifth of all small corporations. On July 15, 1933 a law was enacted that imposed compulsory membership in cartels, while by 1934 the Third Reich had mandated a reorganization of all companies and trade associations and formed an alliance with the Nazi regime. Nonetheless, the Nazi regime was able to close most of Germany’s stock exchanges, reducing them “from twenty-one to nine in 1935,” and “limited the distributed of dividends to 6 percent.” By 1936 Germany decreed laws to completely block foreign stock trades by citizens. These moves showed signs of Antisemitism and a move towards a war economy, with the belief that the stock market was being operated by Jews.
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Economy of Nazi Germany - Wikipedia
 
Rich2018 said:
What is the definition of "right wing" ?
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The right wing is usually very varied, but ultra nationalist normally belongs to the right. There may have been some less right wing policies by the nazi's but those were a means to an end, invading other countries and protecting the fatherland of all foreign infestation. And nazi's aren't really simply right wing, they are extremely far right, to call them far right is an insult to all right wing parties who would never do things that the nazi's did. Just like on the left it is the commies who are extreme left wing bastards, also not representative for left leaning and liberals as a whole.

Rich2018 said:
Can you give examples of the Nazis being "anti-progressive ?
Would that include building the Autobahn network?
How about investing in manufacturing - with the goal of full employment plus the construction of hospitals and schools
Or investing in agriculture with the goal of making Germany self sufficient
Or the scheme to allow workers to buy a Volkswagen Beetle car for a small weekly payment
How about Nazi policies promoting animal welfare
How about Nazi policies to protect the environment ?


Animal welfare in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia


I think you're from the school of "If the Nazis did it, it must be bad".
Click to expand...

The building of the autobahn network sounds nice, but Hitler needed roads to for transport for example of his troops/arms. In fact before Hitler came to power he tried to stop it because he was of the opinion that cars only roads were only good for the rich and the Jews. He worked with the commies to sabotage the construction of these cars only roads. It was also a project to prove his grandeur, more to further glory of himself than to benefit the public.

All investments into hospitals, schools, etc. etc. etc. was not for the people but for the image of the nazi party.

And policies to protect the environment, sure started a world war was very environmentally sound. Animal protection might be wished by some nazi's but were also based on Jew hatred, especially kosher butchery was abhorred by the Nazi's as was vivisection, something the nazi's connected with Jewish scientists. But how protective of animals can you be if you then put the most developed "animal" in the world, humans in extermination camps?

And no, the nazi's did things that can be seen as good but they never or almost never did it out of altruism.
 
Quag said:
You seem confused on this, communism isn't ultranationalist in fact its anti-nationalist as it was pro world govt and they weren't xenophobes they didn't believe their "race" was inherently superior
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Take a look at the Soviet May Day parade or any parade the Chinese communists held under Mao's leadership.
Everyone has a Red flag to wave.

The Olympics were hijacked by the USSR and now China trying to win every gold medal possible - they want the world to see their nation's flag hoisted above the others at the medal ceremony.



I don't think Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain had much in the way of racial ideology - that was really just a Nazi thing.


But yes I grant you, Nazis, Fascists and military dictators focus more on the nation and their movement is more about the leaders than in proletariat regimes like Stalin's or Moa's.


Chinese communist parade - Google Search
 
Peter King said:
Nope, not everything, the biggest thing that communist countries do not have extreme nationalistic tendencies...
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Communist dictators tend not to be as nationalistic.

For the likes of Stalin and Mao, it is less about them than their personal vision for their "class".


Fascist and Nazi leaders it's more about them and their visions for their nation/race.



...you are asking me for examples of strong regimentation in society? And economy?
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Isn't that what you claimed ?


...Hitlerjugend (Hitler youth)
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The All-Union Leninist Young Communist League (Russian: Всесою́зный ле́нинский коммунисти́ческий сою́з молодёжи (ВЛКСМ), known as Komsomol, a political youth organization in the Soviet Union. It is sometimes described as the youth division of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU)...


...Bund Deutscher Mädel (League for young girls) and the Jungmädelbund (young girls league) the first for girls from 14-18 year old girls and the JM was part of the Hitler Youth and was for girls aged 10 to 14....
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The Zhenotdel, Russian: Женотдел, IPA:..the women's department of the Secretariat of the Central Committee of the All-Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks), was the section of the Russian Communist party devoted to women's affairs in the 1920s


The Communist Women's International was launched as an autonomous offshoot of the Communist International in April 1920 for the purpose of advancing communist ideas among women...
 
Peter King said:
The right wing is usually very varied, but ultra nationalist normally belongs to the right. There may have been some less right wing policies by the nazi's but those were a means to an end, invading other countries and protecting the fatherland of all foreign infestation. And nazi's aren't really simply right wing, they are extremely far right, to call them far right is an insult to all right wing parties who would never do things that the nazi's did. Just like on the left it is the commies who are extreme left wing bastards, also not representative for left leaning and liberals as a whole.....
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Why is it called "right wing" rather than "left" wing ?


What's the significance of right and left (without looking it up)


What is the criteria for being "right wing" ?


I suspect you're confused and still thinking of labels along a linear scale from left to right.


...the building of the autobahn network sounds nice, but Hitler needed roads to for transport for example of his troops/arms....
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Nope, railroads were much more commonly used.


Supple were moved to the front by rail.


Did you just make up that claim that Hitler build roads so he could supply his armies ? They were built to assist economic recovery:


"...During World War II, the median strips of some autobahns were paved over to allow their conversion into auxiliary airstrips. Aircraft were either stashed in numerous tunnels or camouflaged in nearby woods. However, for the most part during the war, the autobahns were not militarily significant. Motor vehicles, such as trucks, could not carry goods or troops as quickly or in as much bulk and in the same numbers as trains could, and the autobahns could not be used by tanks as their weight and caterpillar tracks damaged the road surface. The general shortage of petrol in Germany during much of the war, as well as the low number of trucks and motor vehicles needed for direct support of military operations, further decreased the autobahn's significance. As a result, most military and economic freight was carried by rail...."


Autobahn - Wikipedia


...in fact before Hitler came to power he tried to stop it because he was of the opinion that cars only roads were only good for the rich and the Jews. He worked with the commies to sabotage the construction...
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OK we're done.

Anyone referring to socialist or even communist groups as "commies" is clearly a child or has the mental age of one.

You're also wrong with no knowledge of what the Nazi party under Hitler did prior to the war.
I see you have no explanation of Hitler's policies to make German families car owners.



...all investments into hospitals, schools, etc. etc. etc. was not for the people but for the image of the nazi party....
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Source ?

Or just something you made up in between hating the "commies"



Next you'll say the wall that Trump wants to build on the US-Mexico border is just for his own image and to appease the "commies" ....



...policies to protect the environment, sure started a world war....
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I hear so much stupid stuff from young people.

But I'll buy anything once...go on and explain how Hitler's environmental policies started WWII



...animal protection might be wished by some nazi's but were also based on Jew hatred....
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You couldn't make it up


So you grudgingly admit that Hitler's policies included animal rights and protection but say it was only because Hitler hated the Jews so it doesn't really count.


Did Hitler's dislike of "commies" also persuade him to adopt what were superficially benevolent polices but were in fact nefarious attacks on Jews...and "commies" ?




...the nazi's did things that can be seen as good but they never or almost never did it out of altruism.
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They were all disguised attacks on Jews and "commies".
 
Rich2018 said:
I suspect you're confused and still thinking of labels along a linear scale from left to right.
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Plato and Aristotle defined issue of human history 2500 years in very linear way: freedom(right) versus government(left).

government=leftists nazis fascists kings socialists communists liberals dictators progressives

freedom= libertarians, conservatives, right wing, Republican, Founders (Jefferson,Madison)

its not coincidence that is the choice we face in voting booth, it was given to us long ago by Plato and Aristotle. Do you understand?
 
Rich2018 said:
Can you give examples of Nazi Germany's "strong regimentation in society and economy" ?
How was the Germany economy "strongly regimented" under the Nazis ? (or are you speaking about the wartime economy?)
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you can count on Rich to always be wrong.
from Hitler youth to total control of the economy it was extremely regimented

Nazi Regimentation of Reich Life Found Complete by "foreign Affairs ...
Nazi Regimentation of Reich Life Found Complete by "foreign Affairs" - Jewish Telegraphic Agency...
Charles A. Beard describes the Nazi conquest of the German educational system. Norman Thomas described the Nazi regimentation of labor. Dorothy ...
 
Rich2018 said:
Can you give examples of the Nazis being "anti-progressive ?
.
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no!! Nazis were very liberal and progressive. The govt had a bold new solution to every problem, much like AOC. This is opposite to libertarian or conservative.
 
Peter King said:
And nazi's aren't really simply right wing, they are extremely far right,
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HItler and Stalin were were far left which is why our liberals spied for them as they were killing 180 million. HIlter Stalin Mao AOC all call themselves socialists, not conservative libertarians. Odd coincidence???
 
Quag said:
Fascism covers all forms of extreme right wing
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insanity!! Mussolini started as a socialist then became a socialist fascist. there never was a hint of libertarian conservative right wing there.
 
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