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Compulsory government union dues case - ORAL ARGUMENTS

Well, don't be shocked if the support isn't there like it was when miners were getting shot while striking.

I'm not opposed to unions in general, but it doesn't take much exposure to how public unions are run in California to disgust and amaze in equal measures.

Unions can be bad or good. A bad union, permitted to run out of control with public cash and political clout, is a major problem.

Oh I know all about that. That is certainly a major threat. You should know that unions operate within what they know to be the true financial conditions. I had 30 years in the game myself. Unions know how much there really is and what can be afforded.
 
Public employees in NY are subject to the Taylor Law. They cannot strike. I don't know about other states though.

Yeah, each state has their own thing going contractually because it;ls not a national contract; counties differ to. But west Virginia Teachers are pushing real hard right now.
 
Apologist is usually a term used when the thing being defended is the source of some controversy.



You are factually incorrect on this, as 'closed shop' refers to rules that were made illegal in 1947.



Of course there is. Their job is to judge the constitutionality of specific issues brought before them, not make decisions based on political rhetoric or personal concern for a given institution or organization's financial well-being.



Janus has a case and so do the respondents. The Janus side is compelling, and the respondents actually have some fairly compelling arguments they could and should be making on the other side. I was a bit shocked to read some of the arguments that were actually made during oral arguments, and equally shocked that some stronger points for consideration were not made.



Check your facts before hurling accusations of know-nothing.

PATTERN MAKERS v. NLRB | FindLaw

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/right-to-work-laws-and-bills.aspx

Currently, 28 states and Guam have given workers a choice when it comes to union membership. Labor unions still operate in those states, but workers cannot be compelled to become members as a requirement of their job. Kentucky became the 27th right-to-work state when it enacted HB 1 on Jan. 9, 2017. Missouri became the 28th by enacting SB 19 on Feb. 2, 2017.

"Closed Shops" have agreements of exclusive union hiring: I was in it for 30 years in California, I know. You are talking about right to work states and the Pattern Makers case was about fining members for scabbing a picket line, and held for Illinois and Wisconsin. Closed shops exist all over the country.
 
Closed shops are not illegal and I don't know where you;re getting your information.

Closed shops are illegal but union shops are not,

In union shops, employers can hire non-union employees but they must join the union after a period of time.
 
People should not be forced to be part of a union, nor pay for something they want no part of.

No one is forced to be in a union, nor forced to pay union dues

BTW, should lawyers be forced to pay fees to a bar association?
 
Closed shops are illegal but union shops are not,

In union shops, employers can hire non-union employees but they must join the union after a period of time.

Gorsuch's silence so far speaks volumes to me.
His vote against Union Shops is already understood.
Union Shops need to already be planning for a vote against them.
I have no problem ostracizing those who won't pay their fair share for bargaining.

This is an Illinois case, and we have our fair share of scabs.
Funny thing though, non-Union plants like Mobil Oil Refinery near Joliet, IL actually pay higher with great benefits.
They have to in order to compete with Union Shops ...
 
http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/right-to-work-laws-and-bills.aspx

"Closed Shops" have agreements of exclusive union hiring: I was in it for 30 years in California, I know. You are talking about right to work states and the Pattern Makers case was about fining members for scabbing a picket line, and held for Illinois and Wisconsin. Closed shops exist all over the country.

It is unequivocal fact that closed shops have been illegal since 1947 with the passage of Taft-Hartley. This is instantly verifiable with as little as a google search.
 
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No one is forced to be in a union, nor forced to pay union dues

Misleading language. Union security clauses between management and unions impose a requirement upon bargaining unit employees to become financial core members and pay financial core dues. No one is forced to be a full member or pay PAC dues.

BTW, should lawyers be forced to pay fees to a bar association?

Quoting Messenger from the oral arguments, “The state bar associations are justified by the state's compelling government interest in regulating the practice of law before its courts.”
 
Closed shops are illegal but union shops are not,

In union shops, employers can hire non-union employees but they must join the union after a period of time.

Not if contracts have exclusive union rights. I know because I worked under such contracts for 30 years: the employers had to hire from our local hiring hall. As hiring halls went away things have changed.
 
It is unequivocal fact that closed shops have been illegal since 1947 with the passage of Taft-Hartley. This is instantly verifiable with as little as a google search.

California does not have right to work. If you don't pay dues, you can be taken off the job.

In California, right to work laws do not exist. The "Paycheck Protection" initiative, which was very similar to other right-to-work efforts, was soundly defeated when it was put on the general election ballot in 2012. This law would have banned automatic deductions from union members' paychecks for union dues, among other provisions.

California Right to Work Laws - FindLaw
 
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It most certainly is the issue at hand. If you allow people to get all the benefits of being in a union without paying their dues then everyone opts out and you get no union at all. It's called a Nash Equilibrium. Learn it. Letting Union members avoid their union dues would be like letting Americans opt out of paying their taxes while still living within the United States, driving on our roads, going to our schools, and being protected by our military.

They want us to go back to the days where scabs get beaten in back alleys. That's the inevitable outcome: Frontier justice for thieves.
 
Misleading language. Union security clauses between management and unions impose a requirement upon bargaining unit employees to become financial core members and pay financial core dues. No one is forced to be a full member or pay PAC dues.

As I said, no one is forced to be in a union or pay union dues, They are not forced to work for the govt either


Quoting Messenger from the oral arguments, “The state bar associations are justified by the state's compelling government interest in regulating the practice of law before its courts.”
But the govt has no interest in regulating its employees?
 
As I said, no one is forced to be in a union or pay union dues,

I factually clarified your obfuscated language, and you are insisting on keeping it obfuscated. Government workers in bargaining units in non-RTW states are required by the security clause to be financial core members and pay financial core dues.

In post 29 you correctly said union shop provisions require them “to join after a period of time,” which is usually 30 days. What these clauses literally state is they must become a “member in good standing” of the union. This means pay financial core dues.

They are not forced to work for the govt either

Of course not, but that doesn’t provide a good legal defense of the security clause.

But the govt has no interest in regulating its employees?

It does, but that is accomplished by other powers government has. It isn’t accomplished by a security clause for a private organization’s benefit.
 
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They want us to go back to the days where scabs get beaten in back alleys. That's the inevitable outcome: Frontier justice for thieves.

This is a fallacious argumentum ad baculum, and reflects extremely negatively on the pro-union argument and unions in general, admitting the underlying coercive and assaultive intent behind unions and their tactics. Are you trying to further sabotage the public's perception of government unions?
 
This is a fallacious argumentum ad baculum, and reflects extremely negatively on the pro-union argument and unions in general, admitting the underlying coercive and assaultive intent behind unions and their tactics. Are you trying to further sabotage the public's perception of government unions?

You're being dishonest. People have to fight for justice. That's always been the case. If you take away people's ability to negotiate peacefully, you create an environment where violence will flourish.
 
You're being dishonest.

I am not being dishonest. Do you know what a fallacious argumentum ad baculum is? It means "appeal to the stick." Threatening violence if you don't get your way is a very weak and shameful style of argument.

And referring to people who do not want to support a union as "thieves" requires ignoring the fact that unions do not have to be exclusive representatives. The duty of fair representation is something unions impose upon themselves by insisting on exclusive representation in bargaining agreements, and trying to get governments to recognize exclusive representation privileges for unions. Federal law does not mandate they be exclusive representatives. In other words, unions seek to be able to force people to be represented as a condition of accepting certain jobs, and it is this force that comes with a duty to actually represent those people.

Refer to an earlier analogy I made in this thread. If I insist on delivering meals to your door that you do not want, and I bill you accordingly, and you do not pay me, I am not justified in calling you a "thief." I was the one that insisted on giving you the thing so that I could pay you for it.

People have to fight for justice. That's always been the case.

Committing crimes against people is not how we "fight for justice" in this country. Using threats of violence to try to argue in favor of unions is pathetic.

If you take away people's ability to negotiate peacefully

It doesn't. Nothing being contemplated "takes away people's ability to negotiate peacefully."
 
I am not being dishonest. Do you know what a fallacious argumentum ad baculum is? It means "appeal to the stick." Threatening violence if you don't get your way is a very weak and shameful style of argument.

And referring to people who do not want to support a union as "thieves" requires ignoring the fact that unions do not have to be exclusive representatives. The duty of fair representation is something unions impose upon themselves by insisting on exclusive representation in bargaining agreements, and trying to get governments to recognize exclusive representation privileges for unions. Federal law does not mandate they be exclusive representatives. In other words, unions seek to be able to force people to be represented as a condition of accepting certain jobs, and it is this force that comes with a duty to actually represent those people.

Refer to an earlier analogy I made in this thread. If I insist on delivering meals to your door that you do not want, and I bill you accordingly, and you do not pay me, I am not justified in calling you a "thief." I was the one that insisted on giving you the thing so that I could pay you for it.

You're wrong. NLRB regulations only require companies to negotiate with exclusive bargaining representatives. You're technically correct that unions can forego being the exclusive representative, but then the union can't compel the company to the negotiating table. You've essentially set a trap: Either cover the non-union workers, represent them, and bargain for them, or lose all legal leverage as a an entity.

I call them thieves because they accept the services of their coworkers but refuse to pay for it. The better earlier analogy is the one of tax evasion. We throw tax-evaders in prison. What recourse are you leaving unions to police such unethical behavior? The answer is none, because you're arguing dishonestly. Your goal is not to protect the freedoms of workers. Your goal to destroy the ability of unions to bargain. It's transparent.

I don't personally condone violence, but I do recognize it as an aspect of human nature. We have legal systems in place in part to give people the means to address grievances without violence. Take that away, and you create an atmosphere where violence becomes inevitable.
 
You're wrong. NLRB regulations only require companies to negotiate with exclusive bargaining representatives. You're technically correct that unions can forego being the exclusive representative, but then the union can't compel the company to the negotiating table.

The essence of your complaint here is that if we do not allow unions to continue coercing people, then unions will not be able to coerce people! Oh no! That is exactly the point, exactly. Unions do not need to have these coercive monopoly powers. They need to reinvent themselves as voluntary professional associations that provide things of value that members are willing to pay for, and that buyers of skilled labor are willing to pay for via competitive procurement because of the unmatched quality of work and level of skill, relative to the price, that the members of these professional associations are able to provide.

Some union shops bid competitively, and get a lot of work that way. How? Because they simply provide the highest level of work quality and skill available. They train up their members well, they cover all the bases, they bring in people highly competent to submit professional proposals for work, and they do the work the right way, and efficiently. They're the candidate best able to provide what the buyer wants. They don't need to be able to coerce the buyer into never-ending negotiations until a deal is reached. The buyer wants it and is willing to pay for it.

I call them thieves because they accept the services of their coworkers but refuse to pay for it.

If I'm a sandwich maker and I literally force-feed you my sandwich against your will, and you don't want to pay me for it, I don't get to accuse you of stealing from me. On the contrary, you would basically get to accuse me of assaulting you.

These "thieves" as you call them can't refuse the services. Individuals in bargaining units have zero power to decide for themselves to accept the services or not. Unions regarding them as criminals as a result of something intentionally kept outside of their control is inexcusable.

The better earlier analogy is the one of tax evasion.

No it isn't, there are unmistakable and essential differences between taxes levied by governments and fees paid to private organizations.

What recourse are you leaving unions to police such unethical behavior?

It is not workers who are being unethical, it is unions. What unions do is deeply unethical. Once union security clauses are illegal and exclusive representation is abolished, the unethical and coercive nature of how unions operate will vanish.

Your goal is not to protect the freedoms of workers.

Yes it is. My goal is to protect the freedoms of workers against the coercive power of unions.

Your goal to destroy the ability of unions to bargain. It's transparent.

My goal is to destroy the monopoly power of unions, forcing them to reinvent themselves as voluntary professional associations.

I don't personally condone violence, but I do recognize it as an aspect of human nature. We have legal systems in place in part to give people the means to address grievances without violence. Take that away, and you create an atmosphere where violence becomes inevitable.

This is merely a slightly toned down version of your fallacious argumentum ad baculum. It reflects very negatively on unions and the sociopathic mentality that they breed.
 
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The the oral arguments for Janus v. AFSCME delivered yesterday to the Supreme Court.

Pretty amazing how vocally concerned Sotomayor, Ginsburg and Kagan were about the wellbeing of unions, as if that were the legal issue at hand.

They are more concerned about protecting the river of money that flows to democrats from public unions.
 
I factually clarified your obfuscated language, and you are insisting on keeping it obfuscated. Government workers in bargaining units in non-RTW states are required by the security clause to be financial core members and pay financial core dues.

In post 29 you correctly said union shop provisions require them “to join after a period of time,” which is usually 30 days. What these clauses literally state is they must become a “member in good standing” of the union. This means pay financial core dues.



Of course not, but that doesn’t provide a good legal defense of the security clause.

All you did was use obfuscated language to promote a misleading claim that people are forced to pay union dues.


It does, but that is accomplished by other powers government has. It isn’t accomplished by a security clause for a private organization’s benefit.
The govt is allowed to choose the methods by which it achieves its legitimate interests.
 
They are more concerned about protecting the river of money that flows to democrats from public unions.

They seemed to be unabashed about that. They came out swinging, but not necessarily with critical legal questions, but with partisan rhetorical devices like "you're basically arguing to do away with unions" (Sotomayor). Thanks for that standard Mother Jones rhetoric, Mrs. United States Supreme Court Justice.

All you did was use obfuscated language to promote a misleading claim that people are forced to pay union dues.

What I have said is very specific and very factual. Dues paid to unions fall into one of two categories. One is PAC dues, which are strictly voluntary in all 50 states, and financial core dues (also known as agency fees) which, under union security contract provisions in effect in the 23 non-Right-to-Work states, are compulsory.

The govt is allowed to choose the methods by which it achieves its legitimate interests.

Of course, but the argument in front of the court is that this happens to be an illegitimate interest that violates the Constitution's free speech protections.
 
What I have said is very specific and very factual. Dues paid to unions fall into one of two categories. One is PAC dues, which are strictly voluntary in all 50 states, and financial core dues (also known as agency fees) which, under union security contract provisions in effect in the 23 non-Right-to-Work states, are compulsory.

Factual and specific is not mutually exclusive from misleading


Yes, but the argument in front of the court is that this happens to be an illegitimate interest that violates the Constitution's free speech protections.
No, even the plaintiffs agreed that labor relations is a legitimate interest
 
Factual and specific is not mutually exclusive from misleading

Your sweeping generalization as to the voluntary nature of union dues is what's misleading. Some dues are voluntary everywhere. Some dues are compulsory. In RTW states, all dues are voluntary. In non-RTW states, financial core dues are compulsory. That is a clarification of your overgeneralization. I know that we both understand this.

No, even the plaintiffs agreed that labor relations is a legitimate interest

Well I think everyone agrees labor relations in general is a legitimate government interest, but "labor relations" is not the same thing as a union security clause. For example municipal governments can and do pass personnel and labor relations ordinances establishing in their municipal code how the government intends to balance the legitimate employment interests of the work force with the legitimate interests of the citizens. They do this because labor relations with government personnel is of course a legitimate government interest. That doesn't mean union security clauses are, and those are what's being challenged.
 
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