Freedom of Speech in schools.

In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.

Karl Marx said:

In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.

Click to expand...

No.

No more than your freedom of expression is unrestricted in a work environment, or the military, or prison...I think one can posit further examples.

A student is at "work" when sent to school. The job is to learn, not disrupt.

Feel free to express, but expect the consequences if that expression is disruptive or unwarranted...in that case suspension, expulsion, failing to graduate.

Just like in any adult situation.

Karl Marx said:

In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.

Click to expand...

Freedom of speech is respected for students in schools. Up to a point. No kid has their full Rights until they become adults. And for good reason. You wouldn't exactly want your 6 year old to just walk out of class to go to the candy store on their own now would you? Nor would you want your 16 year old to be hollering in class disrupting any other child's chance to learn either.

As for teachers, no. They may have all their Rights but their job is to teach facts to children. Not influence children towards a particular religion or political viewpoint or anything else subjective. Since a teacher is essentially a part of the government they have no place in influencing children on subjective matters.

As long as kids raise their hands and wait to be called on.

Teachers, on the other hand, should stick to their subject.

Angel said:

As long as kids raise their hands and wait to be called on.

Click to expand...

So as long as the learning environment is kept, then freedom of speech should be upheld?

Karl Marx said:

So as long as the learning environment is kept, then freedom of speech should be upheld?

Click to expand...

No. Public School is a forced attendance mandate. Our students are idiots. If they were already brilliant, they would not need education.

Uniforms should be mandated and strict compliance to ethical and courteous behavior need to be enforced.

The practices of our education system should outfit our students with knowledge and behaviors that prepare them to benefit the society and not be a burden upon it.

In my case, Algebra was a waste of my time and that of the instructor. Checkbook balancing would have been useful to me.

ANY of the social feel good classes or comments by the faculty members need be reserved to the clubs after school.

Extending courtesy to ALL people should be taught from the first day to all students as a matter of daily conduct. This single measure would eliminate the ridiculous fragmentation of being inclusive to particular groups. We are all ONE GROUP!

That should be the social lesson of our education system. Everything feel good, PC line of crap is divisive.

Kal'Stang said:

Freedom of speech is respected for students in schools. Up to a point. No kid has their full Rights until they become adults. And for good reason. You wouldn't exactly want your 6 year old to just walk out of class to go to the candy store on their own now would you? Nor would you want your 16 year old to be hollering in class disrupting any other child's chance to learn either.

As for teachers, no. They may have all their Rights but their job is to teach facts to children. Not influence children towards a particular religion or political viewpoint or anything else subjective. Since a teacher is essentially a part of the government they have no place in influencing children on subjective matters.

Click to expand...

Were you ever a teacher and did all you do was teach facts to children?

Karl Marx said:

In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.

Click to expand...

Every freedom has to be balanced.

The older you get in the school system the more you can be free to express your ideas.

haymarket said:

Were you ever a teacher and did all you do was teach facts to children?

Click to expand...

I am not certified as a teacher and have never taught in a classroom setting. However I am a father who teaches his children and I do know what I want them to be taught and what I do not want them to be taught without my guidance. That is my job and role as a father. The only one who has even an equal say to mine when it comes to my kids is my wife, their mother. Anyone else can go to hell.

Kal'Stang said:

I am not certified as a teacher and have never taught in a classroom setting. However I am a father who teaches his children and I do know what I want them to be taught and what I do not want them to be taught without my guidance. That is my job and role as a father. The only one who has even an equal say to mine when it comes to my kids is my wife, their mother. Anyone else can go to hell.

Click to expand...

I thought as much from your comment that the only thing a teacher should do is teach facts.

code1211 said:

No. Public School is a forced attendance mandate. Our students are idiots. If they were already brilliant, they would not need education.

Uniforms should be mandated and strict compliance to ethical and courteous behavior need to be enforced.

The practices of our education system should outfit our students with knowledge and behaviors that prepare them to benefit the society and not be a burden upon it.

In my case, Algebra was a waste of my time and that of the instructor. Checkbook balancing would have been useful to me.

ANY of the social feel good classes or comments by the faculty members need be reserved to the clubs after school.

Extending courtesy to ALL people should be taught from the first day to all students as a matter of daily conduct. This single measure would eliminate the ridiculous fragmentation of being inclusive to particular groups. We are all ONE GROUP!

That should be the social lesson of our education system. Everything feel good, PC line of crap is divisive.

Click to expand...

Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".

haymarket said:

I thought as much from your comment that the only thing a teacher should do is teach facts.

Click to expand...

I take it you disagree?

code1211 said:

No. Public School is a forced attendance mandate. Our students are idiots. If they were already brilliant, they would not need education.

Uniforms should be mandated and strict compliance to ethical and courteous behavior need to be enforced.

The practices of our education system should outfit our students with knowledge and behaviors that prepare them to benefit the society and not be a burden upon it.

In my case, Algebra was a waste of my time and that of the instructor. Checkbook balancing would have been useful to me.

ANY of the social feel good classes or comments by the faculty members need be reserved to the clubs after school.

Extending courtesy to ALL people should be taught from the first day to all students as a matter of daily conduct. This single measure would eliminate the ridiculous fragmentation of being inclusive to particular groups. We are all ONE GROUP!

That should be the social lesson of our education system. Everything feel good, PC line of crap is divisive.

Click to expand...

The last time I heard this was during an explanation of the Hitler Youth.

Kal'Stang said:

I am not certified as a teacher and have never taught in a classroom setting. However I am a father who teaches his children and I do know what I want them to be taught and what I do not want them to be taught without my guidance. That is my job and role as a father. The only one who has even an equal say to mine when it comes to my kids is my wife, their mother. Anyone else can go to hell.

Click to expand...

Look up in loco parentis.

Kal'Stang said:

I am not certified as a teacher and have never taught in a classroom setting. However I am a father who teaches his children and I do know what I want them to be taught and what I do not want them to be taught without my guidance. That is my job and role as a father. The only one who has even an equal say to mine when it comes to my kids is my wife, their mother. Anyone else can go to hell.

Click to expand...

That will not change the public school curriculum.

SMTA said:

The last time I heard this was during an explanation of the Hitler Youth.

Click to expand...

Then you must have missed all the private schools we have ... unless you consider them all to be in line with Hitler Youth.

Barnacle said:

Then you must have missed all the private schools we have ... unless you consider them all to be in line with Hitler Youth.

Click to expand...

The tone of that post was exactly as I described. I didn't miss a thing.
My kids attend private schools and it is not that garbage in that ignorant post.

SMTA said:

Look up in loco parentis.

Click to expand...

Yes, teachers may act as parents while the children are with them. But only to a degree. They cannot countermand a parents word or action unless they deem that word or action to be actually harmful to the child.

SMTA said:

That will not change the public school curriculum.

Click to expand...

I don't expect it to change the curriculum. I do expect them however to not assert their own personal political or religious views upon my children. If they do then there will be hell to pay.

Kal'Stang said:

I take it you disagree?

Click to expand...

Not so much disagree as recognize what you want is without a doubt beyond absurd and bears no relationship to the reality that goes on in schools every day of the year.

For example, one of the things schools do is socialize children teaching them how to get along with others - both their peers and the adults who are in charge of them. This involves constant monitoring of each childs personal behavior and correction of it so they conform to the standards and rules of their environment. That involves judgments and assessments and it involves the application of values and discipline. That process is totally different that the mere recitation of facts.

To pretend otherwise is to deny what a big part of education actually is - teaching children to live in a society with others and get along and know their place and their role in it.

That goes way beyond the mere recitation of facts.

haymarket said:

Not so much disagree as recognize what you want is without a doubt beyond absurd and bears no relationship to the reality that goes on in schools every day of the year.

For example, one of the things schools do is socialize children teaching them how to get along with others - both their peers and the adults who are in charge of them. This involves constant monitoring of each childs personal behavior and correction of it so they conform to the standards and rules of their environment. That involves judgments and assessments and it involves the application of values and discipline. That process is totally different that the mere recitation of facts.

To pretend otherwise is to deny what a big part of education actually is - teaching children to live in a society with others and get along and know their place and their role in it.

That goes way beyond the mere recitation of facts.

Click to expand...

They have rules of conduct that is enforced yes. But the rules are such that they leave very little to the imagination and as such subjectivity by the teacher is kept to a bare minimum.

In any case all that you've done is taken it to the exact opposite of what I was talking about here. I specifically said "religious and political views or anything else subjective" should never be allowed. Not manners/politeness. The "anything else subjective" was obviously meant along the lines of similar veins of things that shouldn't be taught by teachers like religion and politics. You know, things like like feminism, white supremacy...etc etc etc. Things that I don't want my children taught. And remember, we're talking about the personal views of the teacher. Not facts. So teaching about feminism is fine. Putting in your personal beliefs about feminism is a no no.

Obviously politics, religion, feminism, etc etc are going to be taught about. They're a part of our history and current events and processes now. I don't want the subjectivity about those taught. Just the facts.

Understand now?

Kal'Stang said:

They have rules of conduct that is enforced yes. But the rules are such that they leave very little to the imagination and as such subjectivity by the teacher is kept to a bare minimum.

Click to expand...

I want to say this so that it does not sound condescending or comes across as an insult but the most direct way is the most truthful: you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about because you have no practical experience in the field you are pretending to pontificate about. I spent three and a half decades teaching children and each day are literally hundreds of on the spot decisions you must make about student behavior and actions that may require your action - or inaction. And to pretend that they are not subjective is simply ridiculous.

In any case all that you've done is taken it to the exact opposite of what I was talking about here. I specifically said "religious and political views or anything else subjective" should never be allowed.

Click to expand...

You said that teachers should only disperse facts.

Not manners/politeness. The "anything else subjective" was obviously meant along the lines of similar veins of things that shouldn't be taught by teachers like religion and politics. You know, things like like feminism, white supremacy...etc etc etc. Things that I don't want my children taught. And remember, we're talking about the personal views of the teacher. Not facts. So teaching about feminism is fine. Putting in your personal beliefs about feminism is a no no.

Click to expand...

My classes were Government, US History and sometimes Sociology. Can you tell me how in the normal course of events things like feminism and white supremacy are NOT going to be discussed since they are part of the reality of America in the age in which we live?

Obviously politics, religion, feminism, etc etc are going to be taught about. They're a part of our history and current events and processes now. I don't want the subjectivity about those taught. Just the facts.

Click to expand...

And what are these agreed upon list of objective FACTS that you claim would be acceptable to teach about without crossing your lines into what is subjective and cannot be taught?

If I am teaching American History and we have a unit of the American Declaration of Independence and we analyze it and as a teacher I point out that Jefferson who wrote about the rights of man actually owned slaves - am I crossing your line or am I simply reciting and dispersing facts?

And if a Black student raises their hand and asks why white people hated blacks so much that they enslaved them and beat them and raped them and even killed them - all legally according to their rights as property owners in many states - am I suppose to discuss that or back off stating that I am not allowed to give my opinion and leave that student hanging in a moral emptiness?

Tell me please from your lofty position above it all.

Understand now?

roguenuke said:

Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".

Click to expand...

I once attended a series of seminars as part of my duties as a teacher representing my high school. An expert there told us that about 5% of jobs in America required an actual working knowledge of anything mathematical beyond the four basic arithmetical computations which are additions, subtraction, multiplication and division. 5%.

Now this was about the year 2001 or so so lets give the benefit of the doubt and say that number may have doubled in the last decade or two and is now 10%.

So why do we mandate all students to take Algebra and other forms of match beyond arithmetic when 90% of them have no real need nor use for it in their adult lives?

On the other hand, almost 100% of students will have human relationships with other humans - the will meet, date, love, procreate, parent - why don't we teach that instead?

haymarket said:

If I am teaching American History and we have a unit of the American Declaration of Independence and we analyze it and as a teacher I point out that Jefferson who wrote about the rights of man actually owned slaves - am I crossing your line or am I simply reciting and dispersing facts?

Click to expand...

As it is a fact that Jefferson owned slaves there is nothing wrong with telling them so.

haymarket said:

And if a Black student raises their hand and asks why white people hated blacks so much that they enslaved them and beat them and raped them and even killed them - all legally according to their rights as property owners in many states - am I suppose to discuss that or back off stating that I am not allowed to give my opinion and leave that student hanging in a moral emptiness?

Click to expand...

"Moral emptiness"? :roll: Your job is not and never was about teaching children what YOU think is moral. You should tell them the facts. Like the fact that at the time many white people did not consider blacks as being fully human. You also tell them that some believed differently but due to the times they often conformed to societal whims in order to be considered important enough to have a say in matters. Those are backed up by facts. Leave the emotional drivel that you want to spout to yourself. Particularly since beyond what I have mentioned and maybe a couple of other factual points you have no idea why "white people hated blacks so much". Anything that you said that was of your own belief could negatively affect those children. Let them make up their own mind or seek emotional answers from their parents or other family members. Do not impose your own personal beliefs.

Facts are just that. Facts. Points of information which are true and not in dispute.

haymarket said:

Tell me please from your lofty position above it all.

Click to expand...

Not trying to be condescending huh? What I want from teachers is what all good parents want from teachers. They want teachers to give the facts and for the child to come to them, the parents, for the emotional and subjective questions. So if my position is so "lofty" then I guess I'm in good company.

Kal'Stang said:

As it is a fact that Jefferson owned slaves there is nothing wrong with telling them so.



"Moral emptiness"? :roll: Your job is not and never was about teaching children what YOU think is moral. You should tell them the facts. Like the fact that at the time many white people did not consider blacks as being fully human. You also tell them that some believed differently but due to the times they often conformed to societal whims in order to be considered important enough to have a say in matters. Those are backed up by facts. Leave the emotional drivel that you want to spout to yourself. Particularly since beyond what I have mentioned and maybe a couple of other factual points you have no idea why "white people hated blacks so much". Anything that you said that was of your own belief could negatively affect those children. Let them make up their own mind or seek emotional answers from their parents or other family members. Do not impose your own personal beliefs.

Facts are just that. Facts. Points of information which are true and not in dispute.



Not trying to be condescending huh? What I want from teachers is what all good parents want from teachers. They want teachers to give the facts and for the child to come to them, the parents, for the emotional and subjective questions. So if my position is so "lofty" then I guess I'm in good company.

Click to expand...

WOW!!!! Your resistance to your own ignorance about what goes on in education is really entrenched. Like most non-teachers, you really are woefully out of your depth and its like listening to a garage mechanic give me advice on interior decorating. But we get this all the time from mostly the right wing and its nothing new.

The reality is that me telling kids that Jefferson and most of the Signers of the Declaration owned slaves leads to a discussion of the difference between words and deeds and that leads to a discussion as to which matter more. Issues like hypocrisy then come into play and that involves subjective judgments. Just deciding what so called FACTS are taught involve subjective judgments.

You cannot discuss issues of war and peace and life and death and treatment of your fellow man without subjectivity and judgments and morality getting entwined. It simply cannot be done and to pretend it can is beyond ludicrous.

Teachers are paid not to just impart facts but to explain the reasons why those facts happened in the first place. And that involves subjectivity and judgment and touches upon morality.

If a student wants to know how Jefferson could write that all men were created equal and had rights from their Creator while at the same time he owned over 100 slaves and impregnated and disciplined them as less than the humans he knew they were - one cannot answer that question with just the facts. To pretend otherwise is folly and just plain ridiculous.

And they are NOT going to hold that question for six hours until they come home and get the answers from you. That simply is NOT going ot happen and is NOT the way the real world works no matter how strong your parental objections are or how much you want to be the all known fountain of moral and subjective information for your kids lives. It is simply folly to pretend otherwise.

roguenuke said:

Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".

Click to expand...

Man, you are so right! I was bored to death with anything beyond basic math in my youth because it was never demonstrated by my teachers in a way that applied to various work later on in my life. If it was taught in a way where the teacher had used real life examples, I'm quite sure that I would have been more receptive. I did OK with Algebra I in my freshman year, and was doing OK with Algebra II in my sophomore year, but quit school shortly into it.

Many carpenters limit themselves to basic math in the field, and are hard pressed when it comes to adding dormers, hips, and other alterations. I was guilty of this myself for many years and relied on my son who could calculate with a pencil and a piece of scrap wood on the fly. I am better now than 5 years ago, but I am still a slug compared to my son. Lately, I have been doing some online practice with the Pythagorean theorem and rehashing some other basic framing formulas........... and still call my son when I get stumped.