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Freedom of Speech in schools.

roguenuke said:
Accounting, Design, Architecture, Civil Engineering, Medicine, Cooking, any STEM career, Fitness, Business, all require algebra.

So that accounts for far more than the 10% you mentioned earlier. Pretty much only unskilled or low skilled workers do not need algebra.
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most Americans never use advanced math on the job, research suggests

About 86 percent of jobs require simple addition and subtraction

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/29017-which-jobs-actually-use-math.html
 
Captain Adverse said:
No.

No more than your freedom of expression is unrestricted in a work environment, or the military, or prison...I think one can posit further examples.

A student is at "work" when sent to school. The job is to learn, not disrupt.

Feel free to express, but expect the consequences if that expression is disruptive or unwarranted...in that case suspension, expulsion, failing to graduate.

Just like in any adult situation.
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Those who have extracted, redistributed and concentrated more wealth and power will tell us what we can and cannot do; fweedumb. The last thing any power structure ever wanted to confront was a clear, coherent human being, much less a gathering of them.
 
Bodhisattva said:
most Americans never use advanced math on the job, research suggests

About 86 percent of jobs require simple addition and subtraction

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/29017-which-jobs-actually-use-math.html
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There is another reason to keep teaching algebra, one of the same reasons we teach 4 years of literature (basically), because it is difficult and therefore helps to not only open up minds to further learning but also to show that, if they do well, they can do more difficult assignments.
 
roguenuke said:
There is another reason to keep teaching algebra, one of the same reasons we teach 4 years of literature (basically), because it is difficult and therefore helps to not only open up minds to further learning but also to show that, if they do well, they can do more difficult assignments.
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I never said don't teach algebra. I do argue teaching math and english as required subjects past 10th grade is a stupid waste of time and resources. More time should be spent teaching skills most people actually need.
 
Kal'Stang said:
As it is a fact that Jefferson owned slaves there is nothing wrong with telling them so.



"Moral emptiness"? :roll: Your job is not and never was about teaching children what YOU think is moral. You should tell them the facts. Like the fact that at the time many white people did not consider blacks as being fully human. You also tell them that some believed differently but due to the times they often conformed to societal whims in order to be considered important enough to have a say in matters. Those are backed up by facts. Leave the emotional drivel that you want to spout to yourself. Particularly since beyond what I have mentioned and maybe a couple of other factual points you have no idea why "white people hated blacks so much". Anything that you said that was of your own belief could negatively affect those children. Let them make up their own mind or seek emotional answers from their parents or other family members. Do not impose your own personal beliefs.

Facts are just that. Facts. Points of information which are true and not in dispute.



Not trying to be condescending huh? What I want from teachers is what all good parents want from teachers. They want teachers to give the facts and for the child to come to them, the parents, for the emotional and subjective questions. So if my position is so "lofty" then I guess I'm in good company.
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I think you might step back a moment to think on this a bit. Teachers are human beings and highly trained professionals. It is a FACT that many subjects in curriculum are not black and white...but many shades of grey. Great teachers have very human interactions with their students, and often share their learning, their beliefs, their wisdom, their compassion. If you would like a more black and white setting you should enroll your children in a private school with the rules your require. You should not deprive other students of valuable educational experiences.

It is amazing how threatened some are by diversity of thought. And as you say you are instilling your values in your children, they should be strong enough to hear a few variations. Otherwise they might as well live in a box.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I never said don't teach algebra. I do argue teaching math and english as required subjects past 10th grade is a stupid waste of time and resources. More time should be spent teaching skills most people actually need.
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I actually agree that less English/Literature and more useful skills would be important. I don't agree with not teaching algebra, at least one mandatory year for everyone, then everything past that is a student's choice. I'm all for classes such as life skills (actually balancing a household budget, mortgage and loan information, knowing about credit and your credit score), self defense classes (not only physically defending yourself, but also weapon safety), and more classes dealing with history and government.
 
code1211 said:
You had many points.

Care to highlight the one you intended?
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They were all tied into one thing that should have been glaringly obvious. So no. Im sorry but I'm not going to spend any more of my time breaking things down for you.
 
SMTA said:
Your post reeked of negativity and ignorance, which garnered the proper response.
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When any graduates are handed diplomas they cannot read, there are issues that need to be addressed.
 
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. William Butler Yeats
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Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself. John Dewey
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The whole purpose of education is to turn mirrors into windows. Sydney J. Harris
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Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one. Malcolm Forbes
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I notice no one quoted above suggests sticking to the facts, or that time is being wasted. The concept of Freedom of Speech takes an educated mind to comprehend:

"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, (A)nd if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
Thomas Jefferson
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code1211 said:
When any graduates are handed diplomas they cannot read, there are issues that need to be addressed.
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I saw a guy in my last year of college who wrote like a fourth grader.
I had to rewrite his entire section of our joint paper at the last minute so the other 2 guys and I did not fail.
I was pissed.
 
roguenuke said:
I actually agree that less English/Literature and more useful skills would be important. I don't agree with not teaching algebra, at least one mandatory year for everyone, then everything past that is a student's choice. I'm all for classes such as life skills (actually balancing a household budget, mortgage and loan information, knowing about credit and your credit score), self defense classes (not only physically defending yourself, but also weapon safety), and more classes dealing with history and government.
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I think we pretty much agree overall...
 
JMR said:
I think you might step back a moment to think on this a bit. Teachers are human beings and highly trained professionals. It is a FACT that many subjects in curriculum are not black and white...but many shades of grey. Great teachers have very human interactions with their students, and often share their learning, their beliefs, their wisdom, their compassion. If you would like a more black and white setting you should enroll your children in a private school with the rules your require. You should not deprive other students of valuable educational experiences.

It is amazing how threatened some are by diversity of thought. And as you say you are instilling your values in your children, they should be strong enough to hear a few variations. Otherwise they might as well live in a box.
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You don't need to share your beliefs to broaden kids minds. If they ask you a question that you know you're not supposed to answer because its sharing your personal beliefs then ask them a question back. Make them think. Making them think helps with critical thinking skills. Something far more needed than a teachers personal opinion.
 
Kal'Stang said:
You don't need to share your beliefs to broaden kids minds. If they ask you a question that you know you're not supposed to answer because its sharing your personal beliefs then ask them a question back. Make them think. Making them think helps with critical thinking skills. Something far more needed than a teachers personal opinion.
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You seem to overlook how easy it would be to share a personal belief by the simple framing of the question asked back of the student. The idea that no personal beliefs are shared in a school is ridiculous. Raise your children to analyze the information they receive rather than closing them away from "dangerous" beliefs. Education is an ongoing experience, not a procedure performed on a student.
 
Kal'Stang said:
What's folly is to pretend that you, as a teacher, are all knowing. Which is what you have demonstrated here. That YOU know what is best for each and every child you come across. That YOU know how people felt 200 years ago. That YOU know....blah blah blah. It is your form of teaching that has led to the snowflake mentality that has been seen on so many of our college campuses of late.

I may not know everything. But I do know my children. I know how to approach things with them. I know how they will react to different things. That is something you as a teacher would never know because you will never spend the time needed to understand those things with each and every child you come across. That is why it is the parents responsibility and Right to teach their children the subjective things and why teachers should stick to facts.
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Honestly.. that demonstrates a serious lack of what a good educator should do. A good teacher will have discussion of morals, of different viewpoints.. and so on. the irony here is that freedom of speech in the class room.. prevents ideology, and prevents the "all knowing" philosophy.

That's as long as everyone has free speech.. the educator and the student..
 
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