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Thread: Freedom of Speech in schools.

  1. #21
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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    They have rules of conduct that is enforced yes. But the rules are such that they leave very little to the imagination and as such subjectivity by the teacher is kept to a bare minimum.
    I want to say this so that it does not sound condescending or comes across as an insult but the most direct way is the most truthful: you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about because you have no practical experience in the field you are pretending to pontificate about. I spent three and a half decades teaching children and each day are literally hundreds of on the spot decisions you must make about student behavior and actions that may require your action - or inaction. And to pretend that they are not subjective is simply ridiculous.



    In any case all that you've done is taken it to the exact opposite of what I was talking about here. I specifically said "religious and political views or anything else subjective" should never be allowed.
    You said that teachers should only disperse facts.


    Not manners/politeness. The "anything else subjective" was obviously meant along the lines of similar veins of things that shouldn't be taught by teachers like religion and politics. You know, things like like feminism, white supremacy...etc etc etc. Things that I don't want my children taught. And remember, we're talking about the personal views of the teacher. Not facts. So teaching about feminism is fine. Putting in your personal beliefs about feminism is a no no.
    My classes were Government, US History and sometimes Sociology. Can you tell me how in the normal course of events things like feminism and white supremacy are NOT going to be discussed since they are part of the reality of America in the age in which we live?



    Obviously politics, religion, feminism, etc etc are going to be taught about. They're a part of our history and current events and processes now. I don't want the subjectivity about those taught. Just the facts.
    And what are these agreed upon list of objective FACTS that you claim would be acceptable to teach about without crossing your lines into what is subjective and cannot be taught?

    If I am teaching American History and we have a unit of the American Declaration of Independence and we analyze it and as a teacher I point out that Jefferson who wrote about the rights of man actually owned slaves - am I crossing your line or am I simply reciting and dispersing facts?

    And if a Black student raises their hand and asks why white people hated blacks so much that they enslaved them and beat them and raped them and even killed them - all legally according to their rights as property owners in many states - am I suppose to discuss that or back off stating that I am not allowed to give my opinion and leave that student hanging in a moral emptiness?

    Tell me please from your lofty position above it all.

    Understand now?
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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".
    I once attended a series of seminars as part of my duties as a teacher representing my high school. An expert there told us that about 5% of jobs in America required an actual working knowledge of anything mathematical beyond the four basic arithmetical computations which are additions, subtraction, multiplication and division. 5%.

    Now this was about the year 2001 or so so lets give the benefit of the doubt and say that number may have doubled in the last decade or two and is now 10%.

    So why do we mandate all students to take Algebra and other forms of match beyond arithmetic when 90% of them have no real need nor use for it in their adult lives?

    On the other hand, almost 100% of students will have human relationships with other humans - the will meet, date, love, procreate, parent - why don't we teach that instead?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If I am teaching American History and we have a unit of the American Declaration of Independence and we analyze it and as a teacher I point out that Jefferson who wrote about the rights of man actually owned slaves - am I crossing your line or am I simply reciting and dispersing facts?
    As it is a fact that Jefferson owned slaves there is nothing wrong with telling them so.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And if a Black student raises their hand and asks why white people hated blacks so much that they enslaved them and beat them and raped them and even killed them - all legally according to their rights as property owners in many states - am I suppose to discuss that or back off stating that I am not allowed to give my opinion and leave that student hanging in a moral emptiness?
    "Moral emptiness"? Your job is not and never was about teaching children what YOU think is moral. You should tell them the facts. Like the fact that at the time many white people did not consider blacks as being fully human. You also tell them that some believed differently but due to the times they often conformed to societal whims in order to be considered important enough to have a say in matters. Those are backed up by facts. Leave the emotional drivel that you want to spout to yourself. Particularly since beyond what I have mentioned and maybe a couple of other factual points you have no idea why "white people hated blacks so much". Anything that you said that was of your own belief could negatively affect those children. Let them make up their own mind or seek emotional answers from their parents or other family members. Do not impose your own personal beliefs.

    Facts are just that. Facts. Points of information which are true and not in dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Tell me please from your lofty position above it all.
    Not trying to be condescending huh? What I want from teachers is what all good parents want from teachers. They want teachers to give the facts and for the child to come to them, the parents, for the emotional and subjective questions. So if my position is so "lofty" then I guess I'm in good company.
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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    As it is a fact that Jefferson owned slaves there is nothing wrong with telling them so.



    "Moral emptiness"? Your job is not and never was about teaching children what YOU think is moral. You should tell them the facts. Like the fact that at the time many white people did not consider blacks as being fully human. You also tell them that some believed differently but due to the times they often conformed to societal whims in order to be considered important enough to have a say in matters. Those are backed up by facts. Leave the emotional drivel that you want to spout to yourself. Particularly since beyond what I have mentioned and maybe a couple of other factual points you have no idea why "white people hated blacks so much". Anything that you said that was of your own belief could negatively affect those children. Let them make up their own mind or seek emotional answers from their parents or other family members. Do not impose your own personal beliefs.

    Facts are just that. Facts. Points of information which are true and not in dispute.



    Not trying to be condescending huh? What I want from teachers is what all good parents want from teachers. They want teachers to give the facts and for the child to come to them, the parents, for the emotional and subjective questions. So if my position is so "lofty" then I guess I'm in good company.
    WOW!!!! Your resistance to your own ignorance about what goes on in education is really entrenched. Like most non-teachers, you really are woefully out of your depth and its like listening to a garage mechanic give me advice on interior decorating. But we get this all the time from mostly the right wing and its nothing new.

    The reality is that me telling kids that Jefferson and most of the Signers of the Declaration owned slaves leads to a discussion of the difference between words and deeds and that leads to a discussion as to which matter more. Issues like hypocrisy then come into play and that involves subjective judgments. Just deciding what so called FACTS are taught involve subjective judgments.

    You cannot discuss issues of war and peace and life and death and treatment of your fellow man without subjectivity and judgments and morality getting entwined. It simply cannot be done and to pretend it can is beyond ludicrous.

    Teachers are paid not to just impart facts but to explain the reasons why those facts happened in the first place. And that involves subjectivity and judgment and touches upon morality.

    If a student wants to know how Jefferson could write that all men were created equal and had rights from their Creator while at the same time he owned over 100 slaves and impregnated and disciplined them as less than the humans he knew they were - one cannot answer that question with just the facts. To pretend otherwise is folly and just plain ridiculous.

    And they are NOT going to hold that question for six hours until they come home and get the answers from you. That simply is NOT going ot happen and is NOT the way the real world works no matter how strong your parental objections are or how much you want to be the all known fountain of moral and subjective information for your kids lives. It is simply folly to pretend otherwise.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".
    Man, you are so right! I was bored to death with anything beyond basic math in my youth because it was never demonstrated by my teachers in a way that applied to various work later on in my life. If it was taught in a way where the teacher had used real life examples, I'm quite sure that I would have been more receptive. I did OK with Algebra I in my freshman year, and was doing OK with Algebra II in my sophomore year, but quit school shortly into it.

    Many carpenters limit themselves to basic math in the field, and are hard pressed when it comes to adding dormers, hips, and other alterations. I was guilty of this myself for many years and relied on my son who could calculate with a pencil and a piece of scrap wood on the fly. I am better now than 5 years ago, but I am still a slug compared to my son. Lately, I have been doing some online practice with the Pythagorean theorem and rehashing some other basic framing formulas........... and still call my son when I get stumped.
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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    WOW!!!! Your resistance to your own ignorance about what goes on in education is really entrenched. Like most non-teachers, you really are woefully out of your depth and its like listening to a garage mechanic give me advice on interior decorating. But we get this all the time from mostly the right wing and its nothing new.

    The reality is that me telling kids that Jefferson and most of the Signers of the Declaration owned slaves leads to a discussion of the difference between words and deeds and that leads to a discussion as to which matter more. Issues like hypocrisy then come into play and that involves subjective judgments. Just deciding what so called FACTS are taught involve subjective judgments.

    You cannot discuss issues of war and peace and life and death and treatment of your fellow man without subjectivity and judgments and morality getting entwined. It simply cannot be done and to pretend it can is beyond ludicrous.

    Teachers are paid not to just impart facts but to explain the reasons why those facts happened in the first place. And that involves subjectivity and judgment and touches upon morality.

    If a student wants to know how Jefferson could write that all men were created equal and had rights from their Creator while at the same time he owned over 100 slaves and impregnated and disciplined them as less than the humans he knew they were - one cannot answer that question with just the facts. To pretend otherwise is folly and just plain ridiculous.

    And they are NOT going to hold that question for six hours until they come home and get the answers from you. That simply is NOT going ot happen and is NOT the way the real world works no matter how strong your parental objections are or how much you want to be the all known fountain of moral and subjective information for your kids lives. It is simply folly to pretend otherwise.
    What's folly is to pretend that you, as a teacher, are all knowing. Which is what you have demonstrated here. That YOU know what is best for each and every child you come across. That YOU know how people felt 200 years ago. That YOU know....blah blah blah. It is your form of teaching that has led to the snowflake mentality that has been seen on so many of our college campuses of late.

    I may not know everything. But I do know my children. I know how to approach things with them. I know how they will react to different things. That is something you as a teacher would never know because you will never spend the time needed to understand those things with each and every child you come across. That is why it is the parents responsibility and Right to teach their children the subjective things and why teachers should stick to facts.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    What's folly is to pretend that you, as a teacher, are all knowing.
    Take that ugly false strawman back into the barn and save it for somebody who will fall for that tactic. I never said I or any teacher was ALL KNOWING. But I will proudly admit that when it comes to teaching as a profession and teaching the class I taught for 33 years I know a hell of a lot more than a non teacher like yourself. Yes - no doubt about that reality.

    That YOU know what is best for each and every child you come across. That YOU know how people felt 200 years ago. That YOU know....blah blah blah. It is your form of teaching that has led to the snowflake mentality that has been seen on so many of our college campuses of late.
    Never said that either. My but that barn is quite full.


    I may not know everything. But I do know my children. I know how to approach things with them. I know how they will react to different things. That is something you as a teacher would never know because you will never spend the time needed to understand those things with each and every child you come across. That is why it is the parents responsibility and Right to teach their children the subjective things and why teachers should stick to facts.
    False. Teachers spend lots of time with kids and get to know them quite well, In fact, they know them in areas of strength and weakness that some parents are not as well informed about. Sure, there might be super parents who are really in tune with their kids. Terrific. And there are also lots of parents who are tuned out of the details of their child as well. So to pretend that the parent is the knowing one and the teacher is not is far from some rule you can apply and make policy from on that basis.

    What part of this statement so befuddles and confuses you that it reduces you to repeating the same thing over and over again: THERE ARE NO APPROVED LIST OF AGREED UPON FACTS THAT TEACHERS CAN TEACH WITHOUT TOUCHING ON SUBJECTIVE AREAS AND JUDGMENTS?

    I gave you a perfect example from a US History class in a lesson on the Declaration of Independence. So tell me how I can answer my students questions about Jeffersons personal hypocrisy and the difference between words and deeds and their ramifications and impact without deviating from your narrow sacred so called facts? And tell me how I can discuss slavery as an institution of several centuries without being able to answer questions about the values and judgments that the people who owned slaves operated under which permitted them to do this and the attendant discussion about the morality of that? And tell me what I then say when some kid brings up Roy Moore saying we did not need any Amendments beyond the Tenth which means slavery is still constitutional and Blacks have no rights according to the Constitution and what that means to his life and his community and how that is moral or not?

    Tell me. Inform me. Tell me the "facts" about that please?
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Take that ugly false strawman back into the barn and save it for somebody who will fall for that tactic. I never said I or any teacher was ALL KNOWING. But I will proudly admit that when it comes to teaching as a profession and teaching the class I taught for 33 years I know a hell of a lot more than a non teacher like yourself. Yes - no doubt about that reality.
    Of course you never said it. Never said that you did say it. But it is how you are acting.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    False. Teachers spend lots of time with kids and get to know them quite well, In fact, they know them in areas of strength and weakness that some parents are not as well informed about. Sure, there might be super parents who are really in tune with their kids. Terrific. And there are also lots of parents who are tuned out of the details of their child as well. So to pretend that the parent is the knowing one and the teacher is not is far from some rule you can apply and make policy from on that basis.
    Yes, not all parents are parents. Still not your place to tell children subjective things.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What part of this statement so befuddles and confuses you that it reduces you to repeating the same thing over and over again: THERE ARE NO APPROVED LIST OF AGREED UPON FACTS THAT TEACHERS CAN TEACH WITHOUT TOUCHING ON SUBJECTIVE AREAS AND JUDGMENTS?

    I gave you a perfect example from a US History class in a lesson on the Declaration of Independence. So tell me how I can answer my students questions about Jeffersons personal hypocrisy and the difference between words and deeds and their ramifications and impact without deviating from your narrow sacred so called facts? And tell me how I can discuss slavery as an institution of several centuries without being able to answer questions about the values and judgments that the people who owned slaves operated under which permitted them to do this and the attendant discussion about the morality of that? And tell me what I then say when some kid brings up Roy Moore saying we did not need any Amendments beyond the Tenth which means slavery is still constitutional and Blacks have no rights according to the Constitution and what that means to his life and his community and how that is moral or not?

    Tell me. Inform me. Tell me the "facts" about that please?
    You don't talk about hypocrisy. You don't talk about the difference between words and deeds. You don't talk about values and judgements unless they are factually relevant and proven. You may not like it but its not your job to discuss your beliefs. If you think that teaching only facts makes your life as a teacher harder...too bad. Stop trying to make my child into YOU.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Marx View Post
    In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.
    U. S. Founded Without Public Schools (Learn in Freedom!)

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    Re: Freedom of Speech in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Of course you never said it. Never said that you did say it. But it is how you are acting.



    Yes, not all parents are parents. Still not your place to tell children subjective things.



    You don't talk about hypocrisy. You don't talk about the difference between words and deeds. You don't talk about values and judgements unless they are factually relevant and proven. You may not like it but its not your job to discuss your beliefs. If you think that teaching only facts makes your life as a teacher harder...too bad. Stop trying to make my child into YOU.
    You cannot have that lesson without talking about those things if students ask about it and want to know. That is the process of teaching and learning - regardless if you approve of it or not. The reality that Jefferson wrote one thing about human rights and lived the opposite is a very real FACT. And to discuss that FACT is just what you pretended you advocated for.

    So are you going back on your assertion now?



    I would hope that no teacher wants to make your child into themselves. I would hope that you do not want to make your child into yourself either. I would hope we both agree that we want your child to be themselves and be all that they can be maximizing their potential.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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