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Freedom of Speech in schools.

haymarket said:
WOW!!!! Your resistance to your own ignorance about what goes on in education is really entrenched. Like most non-teachers, you really are woefully out of your depth and its like listening to a garage mechanic give me advice on interior decorating. But we get this all the time from mostly the right wing and its nothing new.

The reality is that me telling kids that Jefferson and most of the Signers of the Declaration owned slaves leads to a discussion of the difference between words and deeds and that leads to a discussion as to which matter more. Issues like hypocrisy then come into play and that involves subjective judgments. Just deciding what so called FACTS are taught involve subjective judgments.

You cannot discuss issues of war and peace and life and death and treatment of your fellow man without subjectivity and judgments and morality getting entwined. It simply cannot be done and to pretend it can is beyond ludicrous.

Teachers are paid not to just impart facts but to explain the reasons why those facts happened in the first place. And that involves subjectivity and judgment and touches upon morality.

If a student wants to know how Jefferson could write that all men were created equal and had rights from their Creator while at the same time he owned over 100 slaves and impregnated and disciplined them as less than the humans he knew they were - one cannot answer that question with just the facts. To pretend otherwise is folly and just plain ridiculous.

And they are NOT going to hold that question for six hours until they come home and get the answers from you. That simply is NOT going ot happen and is NOT the way the real world works no matter how strong your parental objections are or how much you want to be the all known fountain of moral and subjective information for your kids lives. It is simply folly to pretend otherwise.
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What's folly is to pretend that you, as a teacher, are all knowing. Which is what you have demonstrated here. That YOU know what is best for each and every child you come across. That YOU know how people felt 200 years ago. That YOU know....blah blah blah. It is your form of teaching that has led to the snowflake mentality that has been seen on so many of our college campuses of late.

I may not know everything. But I do know my children. I know how to approach things with them. I know how they will react to different things. That is something you as a teacher would never know because you will never spend the time needed to understand those things with each and every child you come across. That is why it is the parents responsibility and Right to teach their children the subjective things and why teachers should stick to facts.
 
Kal'Stang said:
What's folly is to pretend that you, as a teacher, are all knowing.
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Take that ugly false strawman back into the barn and save it for somebody who will fall for that tactic. I never said I or any teacher was ALL KNOWING. But I will proudly admit that when it comes to teaching as a profession and teaching the class I taught for 33 years I know a hell of a lot more than a non teacher like yourself. Yes - no doubt about that reality.

That YOU know what is best for each and every child you come across. That YOU know how people felt 200 years ago. That YOU know....blah blah blah. It is your form of teaching that has led to the snowflake mentality that has been seen on so many of our college campuses of late.
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Never said that either. My but that barn is quite full.


I may not know everything. But I do know my children. I know how to approach things with them. I know how they will react to different things. That is something you as a teacher would never know because you will never spend the time needed to understand those things with each and every child you come across. That is why it is the parents responsibility and Right to teach their children the subjective things and why teachers should stick to facts.
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False. Teachers spend lots of time with kids and get to know them quite well, In fact, they know them in areas of strength and weakness that some parents are not as well informed about. Sure, there might be super parents who are really in tune with their kids. Terrific. And there are also lots of parents who are tuned out of the details of their child as well. So to pretend that the parent is the knowing one and the teacher is not is far from some rule you can apply and make policy from on that basis.

What part of this statement so befuddles and confuses you that it reduces you to repeating the same thing over and over again: THERE ARE NO APPROVED LIST OF AGREED UPON FACTS THAT TEACHERS CAN TEACH WITHOUT TOUCHING ON SUBJECTIVE AREAS AND JUDGMENTS?

I gave you a perfect example from a US History class in a lesson on the Declaration of Independence. So tell me how I can answer my students questions about Jeffersons personal hypocrisy and the difference between words and deeds and their ramifications and impact without deviating from your narrow sacred so called facts? And tell me how I can discuss slavery as an institution of several centuries without being able to answer questions about the values and judgments that the people who owned slaves operated under which permitted them to do this and the attendant discussion about the morality of that? And tell me what I then say when some kid brings up Roy Moore saying we did not need any Amendments beyond the Tenth which means slavery is still constitutional and Blacks have no rights according to the Constitution and what that means to his life and his community and how that is moral or not?

Tell me. Inform me. Tell me the "facts" about that please?
 
haymarket said:
Take that ugly false strawman back into the barn and save it for somebody who will fall for that tactic. I never said I or any teacher was ALL KNOWING. But I will proudly admit that when it comes to teaching as a profession and teaching the class I taught for 33 years I know a hell of a lot more than a non teacher like yourself. Yes - no doubt about that reality.
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Of course you never said it. Never said that you did say it. But it is how you are acting.

haymarket said:
False. Teachers spend lots of time with kids and get to know them quite well, In fact, they know them in areas of strength and weakness that some parents are not as well informed about. Sure, there might be super parents who are really in tune with their kids. Terrific. And there are also lots of parents who are tuned out of the details of their child as well. So to pretend that the parent is the knowing one and the teacher is not is far from some rule you can apply and make policy from on that basis.
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Yes, not all parents are parents. Still not your place to tell children subjective things.

haymarket said:
What part of this statement so befuddles and confuses you that it reduces you to repeating the same thing over and over again: THERE ARE NO APPROVED LIST OF AGREED UPON FACTS THAT TEACHERS CAN TEACH WITHOUT TOUCHING ON SUBJECTIVE AREAS AND JUDGMENTS?

I gave you a perfect example from a US History class in a lesson on the Declaration of Independence. So tell me how I can answer my students questions about Jeffersons personal hypocrisy and the difference between words and deeds and their ramifications and impact without deviating from your narrow sacred so called facts? And tell me how I can discuss slavery as an institution of several centuries without being able to answer questions about the values and judgments that the people who owned slaves operated under which permitted them to do this and the attendant discussion about the morality of that? And tell me what I then say when some kid brings up Roy Moore saying we did not need any Amendments beyond the Tenth which means slavery is still constitutional and Blacks have no rights according to the Constitution and what that means to his life and his community and how that is moral or not?

Tell me. Inform me. Tell me the "facts" about that please?
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You don't talk about hypocrisy. You don't talk about the difference between words and deeds. You don't talk about values and judgements unless they are factually relevant and proven. You may not like it but its not your job to discuss your beliefs. If you think that teaching only facts makes your life as a teacher harder...too bad. Stop trying to make my child into YOU.
 
Karl Marx said:
In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.
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U. S. Founded Without Public Schools (Learn in Freedom!)
 
Kal'Stang said:
Of course you never said it. Never said that you did say it. But it is how you are acting.



Yes, not all parents are parents. Still not your place to tell children subjective things.



You don't talk about hypocrisy. You don't talk about the difference between words and deeds. You don't talk about values and judgements unless they are factually relevant and proven. You may not like it but its not your job to discuss your beliefs. If you think that teaching only facts makes your life as a teacher harder...too bad. Stop trying to make my child into YOU.
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You cannot have that lesson without talking about those things if students ask about it and want to know. That is the process of teaching and learning - regardless if you approve of it or not. The reality that Jefferson wrote one thing about human rights and lived the opposite is a very real FACT. And to discuss that FACT is just what you pretended you advocated for.

So are you going back on your assertion now?



I would hope that no teacher wants to make your child into themselves. I would hope that you do not want to make your child into yourself either. I would hope we both agree that we want your child to be themselves and be all that they can be maximizing their potential.
 
Karl Marx said:
In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.
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THis has been ruled on plenty of times. You do not give up your 1st amendment rights simply because you walk into a government building. With school there are some restriction such as you cannot cause a disruption with what you are doing.

Everything else is pretty much there.
 
haymarket said:
You cannot have that lesson without talking about those things if students ask about it and want to know. That is the process of teaching and learning - regardless if you approve of it or not. The reality that Jefferson wrote one thing about human rights and lived the opposite is a very real FACT. And to discuss that FACT is just what you pretended you advocated for.

So are you going back on your assertion now?
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Yes, you can teach about facts without talking about the hypocrisy. Just stick to the facts. Tell the child that you're not allowed to if you must. Tell them that they should ask their parents. Tell them anything so long as its not your own beliefs. You are not the only teacher in their life. You're not even the most important one.

haymarket said:
I would hope that no teacher wants to make your child into themselves. I would hope that you do not want to make your child into yourself either. I would hope we both agree that we want your child to be themselves and be all that they can be maximizing their potential.
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Then stop trying to make them into you. :shrug: Which is what you are doing by putting your own beliefs into your teaching material.
 
Karl Marx said:
In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.
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Students should be allowed to express free speech. However, they should also be taught to question all things, and back up their opinions with facts and data. Now, students are not taught to question their own propaganda based beliefs. Political minded Teachers prefer trained seal clones.

The free speech problem is usually connected to narrow minds and one sided opinions. This dynamics is more about social needs and not the rational basis for the opinion. It like calling John a dork just to go along and pretend to have an opinion for your group placement. It is more about group dynamics, than a quest for the truth in all things.

In school, nobody wants to be a victim of a bully. There are certain opinions which can make you look good to the herd. There are other opinions that can cause the herd to bully you. If you said I like Trump, in a liberal indoctrinated school, you will become a victim, due to group conditioning. Often an opinion chosen is really based on a social calculation, and not the content of the argument. Some people think restricting free speech is good. They assume if all you have are mindless students, who think based on social needs, the wrong buzz words can lead to emotional conflicts. We need to censor buzz words.

This is similar to a male trying to pick up a girl. The successful male knows he will fair better if he figures out what she wishes to hear; correct opinion for his social optimization. She will not question a sweet compliment, even if not true. The guys does not even have to believe his complement. However, he has to appear sincere. There is a ritual.

The entire free speech restriction is all about social needs and rituals coming before the search for truth. He knows he can't say she is ugly, even if true, since that conflicts with social protocol. Those who seek truth, instead of social positioning, have thicker skins. Those who believe based on social needs will feel unstable to change, will tend to overreact. Reasoning can thicken the skin and allow freer speech.
 
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code1211 said:
No. Public School is a forced attendance mandate. Our students are idiots. If they were already brilliant, they would not need education.

Uniforms should be mandated and strict compliance to ethical and courteous behavior need to be enforced.

The practices of our education system should outfit our students with knowledge and behaviors that prepare them to benefit the society and not be a burden upon it.

In my case, Algebra was a waste of my time and that of the instructor. Checkbook balancing would have been useful to me.

ANY of the social feel good classes or comments by the faculty members need be reserved to the clubs after school.

Extending courtesy to ALL people should be taught from the first day to all students as a matter of daily conduct. This single measure would eliminate the ridiculous fragmentation of being inclusive to particular groups. We are all ONE GROUP!

That should be the social lesson of our education system. Everything feel good, PC line of crap is divisive.
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Checkbook balancing and being kind and respectful should be taught by the parents. As should manner of dress.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Yes, you can teach about facts without talking about the hypocrisy. Just stick to the facts.
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Jeffersons hypocrisy is a historical fact. Do you deny it?

Tell the child that you're not allowed to if you must. Tell them that they should ask their parents. Tell them anything so long as its not your own beliefs. You are not the only teacher in their life. You're not even the most important one.
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That is both absurd and far from practical. Kids want questions answered when it hits them to ask them. Period. And a teacher who cannot discuss the obvious factual truth of the hypocrisy of Jefferson is not teaching reality - they are being restrained by your politics and your opinion and your views about something you know precious little about.

The day we start doing that is the day we have surrendered to beliefs over facts. And the fact is Jefferson wrote one thing about what he believed about human rights but lived quite the opposite for his adult life. That may an inconvenient truth for you and your politics - but it is a fact just the same.

Then stop trying to make them into you. Which is what you are doing by putting your own beliefs into your teaching material.
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That is beyond ridiculous . Teaching them facts is just what you advocated. I am merely obeying your wishes in teaching them about the hypocrisy of Jefferson. That is what you said you wanted teachers to do - teach the facts.

I guess the facts you want taught are determined by your politics and not historical reality.

What this is about in the final analysis, is you have a deathly fear that you send a little right winger off to school and one day they come home and tell Daddy his politics are full of crap and can outargue you with FACTS they learned in school.
 
Thumper39 said:
Checkbook balancing and being kind and respectful should be taught by the parents. As should manner of dress.
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And if you get kids in school are neither kind nor respectful. What is a teacher then to do when other children have their right to an education obstructed or violated by these ill mannered children?
 
roguenuke said:
Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".
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I agree completely.

Sadly, I don't have an aptitude for it. I suffer from a mild affliction of dyslexia. This is difficult in things like spelling and numbers. I need to check and re-check numbers like phone numbers and so forth.

I'm used to it now, but that's just the way it is. Compensating for weakness is part of living.

When I was trying to comprehend quadratic equations and keep the letters where they were supposed to be and solve for n, it was very frustrating. I figured I must be retarded.

Geometry was easy for me. Art classes were very rewarding. I eventually earned a Bachelors Degree in Art. Most of the the guys gifted in Algebra wasted their time in the art classes.

Algebra was a waste of time FOR ME.
 
SMTA said:
The last time I heard this was during an explanation of the Hitler Youth.
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Extending courtesy to all people is a bad thing?

I have hired 100's of people to do jobs over several decades and have found that training graduates involves varying degrees of de-programming.

If a graduate knows it all already and is possessed of the notion that his opinion is the most valuable opinion, he is very difficult to train.

I know. I was that guy.

A very large part of education is the implantation of the understanding that very wise folks are rare and that humble searching for understanding will produce benefit.

Showing your work for a pat on the head is worthless in the real world.

"If you set out to take Vienna, then take Vienna."
 
Thumper39 said:
Checkbook balancing and being kind and respectful should be taught by the parents. As should manner of dress.
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And "Love means never having to say you're sorry."

Most private schools have uniform dress codes. They also have much higher rates of graduation, higher average GPA's and higher college acceptance rates. They produce these superior results at a lower cost per student.

We hear almost every week that some poor schlub got sent home or expelled due to the message on his/her T-shirt.

We know that kids are killed in inner cities due to others coveting their shoes.

Checkbook balancing is a needed skill in today's society. It's a rudimentary general ledger of your financial life. WHY should this NOT be taught in a school?

Courtesy should be taught in the home, but, sadly and obviously, it is not in many cases. Addressing everyone using appropriate titles might help to engender courtesy.

Saying "please" when asking for something or "excuse me" when interrupting someone's moment is a good thing.

ALL of these things have been developed over centuries as a method of communication. Courtesy is not a thing that just happens, though.

It is a learned behavior as is bullying, rudeness and profanity in speech. If it needs to be learned, it should be taught. What better place to teach than in school?
 
Karl Marx said:
In public school should a students freedom of speech be respected? Public school is a government program, and the 1st amendment is a government law. Also along the lines of the 1st amendment, should teachers be able to share there thoughts and values with students. This is just a thought concerning restrictions in public schools, please tell me what you think.
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No. They are minors... for one.

Basically all non.offensive speech is protected at school already anyway.
 
roguenuke said:
Algebra is a much needed and basic foundation for many technical jobs. Even calculating your insurance rates or other such things requires a base knowledge of algebra. It is not a waste of time if taught in a way that emphasizes its usefulness rather than simply saying "solve this equation, doesn't matter why".
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Basic algebra is a good tool but algebra 1 and any higher math is a waste of time for 90% of students
 
code1211 said:
Most private schools have uniform dress codes. They also have much higher rates of graduation, higher average GPA's and higher college acceptance rates. They produce these superior results at a lower cost per student.
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Look at the "class" of parents who send their children to private schools.

We hear almost every week that some poor schlub got sent home or expelled due to the message on his/her T-shirt.
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Yup. We need to stop raising snowflakes that cant get their feelings hurt.

We know that kids are killed in inner cities due to others coveting their shoes.
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see my previous post. Stop enabling that mentality through help with giv programs and it will drop drastically.

Checkbook balancing is a needed skill in today's society. It's a rudimentary general ledger of your financial life. WHY should this NOT be taught in a school?
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My networth is approaching eight figures. i haven't had a checkbook since I was twenty.

Smell what Im stepping in?

No? If parents have no incentive in being parents and given what ive talked about above we wont need to dump more money into a failing educational system. Parents that want their kids to succeed will teach them these basic life skills.

I was never taught how to change a tire in school. But I still know how to do it.

Courtesy should be taught in the home, but, sadly and obviously, it is not in many cases. Addressing everyone using appropriate titles might help to engender courtesy.
It wont if its not taught at home. It certainly wont if its forced.




It is a learned behavior as is bullying, rudeness and profanity in speech. If it needs to be learned, it should be taught. What better place to teach than in school?
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At home.

I am a foul mouthed grisseled multi racial former Marine, roughneck, iron worker, fitter turned biker. Curse words spew out of my mouth at the cyclic rate. But appropriately. My kids learned when to call a guy sir by me. My daughters graduated presidential honors.

We dont need to expect more to be taught by schools. We need them to teach less.
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Thumper39 said:
Look at the "class" of parents who send their children to private schools.

Yup. We need to stop raising snowflakes that cant get their feelings hurt.

see my previous post. Stop enabling that mentality through help with giv programs and it will drop drastically.

My networth is approaching eight figures. i haven't had a checkbook since I was twenty.

Smell what Im stepping in?

No? If parents have no incentive in being parents and given what ive talked about above we wont need to dump more money into a failing educational system. Parents that want their kids to succeed will teach them these basic life skills.

I was never taught how to change a tire in school. But I still know how to do it.

Courtesy should be taught in the home, but, sadly and obviously, it is not in many cases. Addressing everyone using appropriate titles might help to engender courtesy. It wont if its not taught at home. It certainly wont if its forced.






At home.

I am a foul mouthed grisseled multi racial former Marine, roughneck, iron worker, fitter turned biker. Curse words spew out of my mouth at the cyclic rate. But appropriately. My kids learned when to call a guy sir by me. My daughters graduated presidential honors.

We dont need to expect more to be taught by schools. We need them to teach less.
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Your children were fortunate to have a strong role model. Many children are not so fortunate.

Our schools are a societal expense and need to provide societal benefits.

Being a foul mouthed anything is not a particularly good selling point. What comes out of your foul mouth is apparently of value and the role modeling you provide is important and also valuable.

The PRODUCT that comes out of our schools is not what it should be at this moment. That product is the students.

You seem to agree that teaching children is important. Why do you feel that teaching courtesy in schools is a bad thing?
 
code1211 said:
Your children were fortunate to have a strong role model. Many children are not so fortunate.

Our schools are a societal expense and need to provide societal benefits.

Being a foul mouthed anything is not a particularly good selling point. What comes out of your foul mouth is apparently of value and the role modeling you provide is important and also valuable.

The PRODUCT that comes out of our schools is not what it should be at this moment. That product is the students.

You seem to agree that teaching children is important. Why do you feel that teaching courtesy in schools is a bad thing?
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You missed the entire point of my post.
 
code1211 said:
Extending courtesy to all people is a bad thing?

I have hired 100's of people to do jobs over several decades and have found that training graduates involves varying degrees of de-programming.

If a graduate knows it all already and is possessed of the notion that his opinion is the most valuable opinion, he is very difficult to train.

I know. I was that guy.

A very large part of education is the implantation of the understanding that very wise folks are rare and that humble searching for understanding will produce benefit.

Showing your work for a pat on the head is worthless in the real world.

"If you set out to take Vienna, then take Vienna."
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Your post reeked of negativity and ignorance, which garnered the proper response.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Basic algebra is a good tool but algebra 1 and any higher math is a waste of time for 90% of students
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No. It's not. Most students could use those skills in work, particularly if they are going for any technical or data job, which is jobs of the future. If they are going to go to college at all, it is better to have the higher maths. 66% of graduating seniors go to college.
 
roguenuke said:
No. It's not. Most students could use those skills in work, particularly if they are going for any technical or data job, which is jobs of the future. If they are going to go to college at all, it is better to have the higher maths. 66% of graduating seniors go to college.
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Many of those 66% are not technical jobs snd many are wasting time and money because they wont get or use a degree... algebra is a waste of time for the vast majority of people who do not need nor ever use anything beyond basic math.
 
roguenuke said:
No. It's not. Most students could use those skills in work, particularly if they are going for any technical or data job, which is jobs of the future. If they are going to go to college at all, it is better to have the higher maths. 66% of graduating seniors go to college.
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Many of those 66% are not technical jobs snd many are wasting time and money because they wont get or use a degree... algebra is a waste of time for the vast majority of people who do not need nor ever use anything beyond basic math.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Many of those 66% are not technical jobs snd many are wasting time and money because they wont get or use a degree... algebra is a waste of time for the vast majority of people who do not need nor ever use anything beyond basic math.
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Accounting, Design, Architecture, Civil Engineering, Medicine, Cooking, any STEM career, Fitness, Business, all require algebra.

So that accounts for far more than the 10% you mentioned earlier. Pretty much only unskilled or low skilled workers do not need algebra.
 
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