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Thread: Constitutional Crisis

  1. #21
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    I have asked this here before: What happens (details) if we have a Constitutional Crisis? If the Administration manages to get Mueller removed what are the next steps in our government? I realize that this is speculation, but the term (Const. Crisis) has been bandied about for the last ten months or more. Was the Watergate event a C.C.?
    We don't have a constitutional crises nor are we likely to. That is stuff made up by the likes of Mark Levin and other far right antiAmericans who want to have a constitutional convention to rewrite the whole thing to suit their agenda.
    “The people do not want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    My understanding is that DJT cannot directly terminate the Special Counsel, but has to go through the AG.
    Hell, the way things are going, President Trump is better off politically to leave Mueller right where he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

  3. #23
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    My understanding is that DJT cannot directly terminate the Special Counsel, but has to go through the AG.
    Correct- As the AG has recused himself, goes to the Dep AG. if he refuses and DJT fires him, DJT goes to the next in line. And if refused, can fire them. And so on down the chain.
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    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    And, he stated that he will not. However, Trump could fire Sessions, replace him with someone who will fire Mueller. I hope he does. Because, that act will end his presidency.
    I don't believe this, Calamity. I don't.

    I've been following this for months, and I see nothing happening. I honestly believe he can move, or fire Sessions, hire someone in his place and have that person fire Mueller, and I think that life will go on, and the sun will rise the next day, and not a damn thing will happen to Trump.

    He is pretty much untouchable at this point. I don't see the GOP doing anything, because they are too worried about getting dumb ass bills passed to worry about any constitutional crises going on in the nation.
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    I have asked this here before: What happens (details) if we have a Constitutional Crisis? If the Administration manages to get Mueller removed what are the next steps in our government? I realize that this is speculation, but the term (Const. Crisis) has been bandied about for the last ten months or more. Was the Watergate event a C.C.?
    I understand that nobody wants to talk about it, but I would say that when Congress passes illegitimate legislation to render the Fourth Amendment moot, we already have a Constitutional Crisis. Judge Napolitano has pointed that out in several of his books, including 2011 book "It is dangerous to be right when the Government is Wrong".

    I would say that when Congress declares that Habeas Corpus is no longer valid, we already have a Constitutional Crisis.

    Wake up and smell the napalm, it's been burning for years.

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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    A Constitutional crisis comes up when a problem arises that the Constitution cannot solve.

    Trump has the authority to fire Mueller so there would be no Constitutional crisis. And even if he didn't he can removed from office. Now if he was impeached and removed and refused to go and used the army to back up his refusal that would be a Constitutional crisis.
    I know what you mean, but the wording should be "when a problem arises that the Constitution has no remedy for."

    I would suggest that there is an infiltration so complete that those with the authority to use the constitutional remedy will not. Or, "when a problem arises that the Constitution has remedy for, but no official will use the remedy."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    My understanding is that DJT cannot directly terminate the Special Counsel, but has to go through the AG.
    That seems correct to me and Thoreau72 nails the dynamics of it , in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    I understand that nobody wants to talk about it, but I would say that when Congress passes illegitimate legislation to render the Fourth Amendment moot, we already have a Constitutional Crisis. Judge Napolitano has pointed that out in several of his books, including 2011 book "It is dangerous to be right when the Government is Wrong".

    I would say that when Congress declares that Habeas Corpus is no longer valid, we already have a Constitutional Crisis.

    Wake up and smell the napalm, it's been burning for years.

  7. #27
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    The phrase "constitutional crisis" isn't a legal term at all, but it does serve to describe several well known and acknowledged types of government, legal, national security and executive emergencies.
    But in the end, wouldn't it be fair to say that "constitutional crisis" means to the Constitution what "psychotic lapse" means to mental illness? Even a seasoned medical professional might struggle a bit to lay out the specific set of morbidities that clearly define such a lapse but they can certainly tell one when they see one.

    If congressional Republicans fail to hold Trump accountable for firing Mueller, I daresay that would accurately describe a crisis of fidelity, but it would naturally follow that if we are in a crisis of fidelity, then we must by necessity also be in a concomitant operational crisis, because the former paints us into the corner where we are confounded by the latter, thus the two are inseparable.

    Political scientist Keith Whittington describes it as a set of “circumstances in which the constitutional order itself is failing.”
    In government itself, an "operational crisis" might be when the Constitution can't tell us how to resolve a political dispute.
    Or, there is a "fidelity crisis" where the Constitution lays out the rules to tell us what to do but those rules aren't being obeyed.

    But what about when the Constitution fails to constrain political disputes within some accepted semblance of normalcy?
    Representatives and leaders from both parties insist that they are acting constitutionally, but that it's their opponent which is not.
    You might be reminded of The Civil War.

    Clearly the one thing that all of these have in common is some kind of tipping point, where most if not all are forced to recognize that we are testing the legal and constitutional order of governance.
    Maybe it is better to use a term like "constitutional rot" instead, where faith in the values and structural integrity of the Constitution itself have clearly eroded despite the legal structure remaining in place.

    But if a president is attempting to fire his way out of facing the wheels of justice, does that legal structure still have the necessary integrity to uphold the values in the Constitution or not?

    Constitutional rot therefore must eventually lead to a constitutional crisis, both of fidelity and in terms of operation itself.
    A termite infested building might stand for decades after the bugs have set in but one day your Aunt Claire might go crashing through the kitchen floor and wind up head over heels in the basement among the rotted timbers.

    A host body cannot restore life after a parasitic infection has hollowed out and destroyed the organs.
    If we do not apply prophylactic measures, the host body succumbs needlessly for want of antibiotics and one reaches the tipping point where it is too late, and the victim dies.

    Termite infested wood does not grow solid again.
    Rancid meat doesn't return to freshness.

    Fidelity can be restored.
    Rot however, cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    You are right. The 55th amendment made it a death sentence for a black male to carry a gun in the south.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    So you and Popper-baby would tolerate pedophilia?


  8. #28
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Here's a thought... if President Trump somehow engineers the firing of Mueller, could not the Congress pass a Joint Resolution appointing him as their Special Counsel? There is already precedent for taking such a step as Congress passed a joint resolution creating two special counsels (one Democrat, one Republican) to investigate the Teapot Dome Scandal in 1924.

  9. #29
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    The phrase "constitutional crisis" isn't a legal term at all, but it does serve to describe several well known and acknowledged types of government, legal, national security and executive emergencies.
    But in the end, wouldn't it be fair to say that "constitutional crisis" means to the Constitution what "psychotic lapse" means to mental illness? Even a seasoned medical professional might struggle a bit to lay out the specific set of morbidities that clearly define such a lapse but they can certainly tell one when they see one.

    If congressional Republicans fail to hold Trump accountable for firing Mueller, I daresay that would accurately describe a crisis of fidelity, but it would naturally follow that if we are in a crisis of fidelity, then we must by necessity also be in a concomitant operational crisis, because the former paints us into the corner where we are confounded by the latter, thus the two are inseparable.

    Political scientist Keith Whittington describes it as a set of “circumstances in which the constitutional order itself is failing.”
    In government itself, an "operational crisis" might be when the Constitution can't tell us how to resolve a political dispute.
    Or, there is a "fidelity crisis" where the Constitution lays out the rules to tell us what to do but those rules aren't being obeyed.

    But what about when the Constitution fails to constrain political disputes within some accepted semblance of normalcy?
    Representatives and leaders from both parties insist that they are acting constitutionally, but that it's their opponent which is not.
    You might be reminded of The Civil War.

    Clearly the one thing that all of these have in common is some kind of tipping point, where most if not all are forced to recognize that we are testing the legal and constitutional order of governance.
    Maybe it is better to use a term like "constitutional rot" instead, where faith in the values and structural integrity of the Constitution itself have clearly eroded despite the legal structure remaining in place.

    But if a president is attempting to fire his way out of facing the wheels of justice, does that legal structure still have the necessary integrity to uphold the values in the Constitution or not?

    Constitutional rot therefore must eventually lead to a constitutional crisis, both of fidelity and in terms of operation itself.
    A termite infested building might stand for decades after the bugs have set in but one day your Aunt Claire might go crashing through the kitchen floor and wind up head over heels in the basement among the rotted timbers.

    A host body cannot restore life after a parasitic infection has hollowed out and destroyed the organs.
    If we do not apply prophylactic measures, the host body succumbs needlessly for want of antibiotics and one reaches the tipping point where it is too late, and the victim dies.

    Termite infested wood does not grow solid again.
    Rancid meat doesn't return to freshness.

    Fidelity can be restored.
    Rot however, cannot.
    If congressional Republicans fail to hold Trump accountable for firing Mueller, I daresay that would accurately describe a crisis of fidelity, but it would naturally follow that if we are in a crisis of fidelity, then we must by necessity also be in a concomitant operational crisis, because the former paints us into the corner where we are confounded by the latter, thus the two are inseparable.
    A constitutional crisis would be holding Trump accountable for exercising his Article II power by Congress, which would be a constitutional crises over the seperation of powers doctrine.

  10. #30
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    Re: Constitutional Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    A constitutional crisis would be holding Trump accountable for exercising his Article II power by Congress, which would be a constitutional crises over the seperation of powers doctrine.
    Filling vacancies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    You are right. The 55th amendment made it a death sentence for a black male to carry a gun in the south.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    So you and Popper-baby would tolerate pedophilia?


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