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Thread: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordelier View Post
    . What's the alternative? To make up rights out of thin air without reference to the Constitution itself??
    And these are from the intent of the constitution itself and you've not shown otherwise.

    1) We have the right to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights.

    2) If the framers intended for Americans to alter or abolish then they intended that free speech have the ultimate PURPOSE of enabling our unity under law needed to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordelier View Post
    I kind of look at rights like open range... before the white man settled on the continent, there were no fences... vast herds of buffalo roamed from horizon to horizon and the land was owned by no man. But then we came along with our property laws and surveying tools and we mapped the land and divided it up and put up barbed wire. Now your land was defined... it gave the individual ownership of his or her section, but it also limited their range. The rights guaranteed by the first 8 Amendments are like that... they're clearly spelled out in the Constitution. They're your's and mine. But by spelling them out and putting them down on paper, it means that their range is also limited. There always have to be boundaries.

    The Ninth Amendment is the constitutional "open range" that still exists out there. It hasn't been surveyed yet. But any good surveyor will tell you that if you want to survey and fence out a piece of land, you can only do it in reference to fixed datums. You need to know the longitude and latitude of your starting point, and where the boundaries lie in relation to the properties that have already been fenced off. Without these references, any land claims you make are just shouts in desolate winds of terra incognita.
    That is a fair analogy, surveying land and establishing boundaries. Indeed, the constitution prescribes specific boundaries within which the government shall act, and beyond which it is not authorized.

    In the spirit of the Ninth and Tenth, it seems to me letting the government be the arbiter of what the rights of man really and actually are is somehow an error.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    Then if the people do not like the interpretation they redefine it and the courts have no lawful option except change their interpretation. You've failed to show they have any other lawful course.
    Absolutely... but that has nothing to do with the 9th Amendment. The Constitutional amending formula is covered by Article V.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    And these are from the intent of the constitution itself and you've not shown otherwise.

    1) We have the right to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights.

    2) If the framers intended for Americans to alter or abolish then they intended that free speech have the ultimate PURPOSE of enabling our unity under law needed to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights.
    Again, there is already provision in the Constitution to change the government... they're called elections.

    If you're talking about changing the government through non-democratic means, then I'd have to say that such actions would be entirely unconstitutional. As I said before, the 9th Amendment isn't the Constitution's self-destruct switch.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    That is a fair analogy, surveying land and establishing boundaries. Indeed, the constitution prescribes specific boundaries within which the government shall act, and beyond which it is not authorized.

    In the spirit of the Ninth and Tenth, it seems to me letting the government be the arbiter of what the rights of man really and actually are is somehow an error.
    I'd tend to agree with you if we all lived in isolation... but we don't. We live in a world where your rights bump up against my rights. If we both lay claim to the same piece of land, then what option is there besides seeking arbitration from the courts? In the final analysis, we have a choice between living in a world where right makes might or one where might makes right.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    That is a fair analogy, surveying land and establishing boundaries. Indeed, the constitution prescribes specific boundaries within which the government shall act, and beyond which it is not authorized.

    In the spirit of the Ninth and Tenth, it seems to me letting the government be the arbiter of what the rights of man really and actually are is somehow an error.
    I'm recognizing the signs of a cognitive infiltrator w/cordy as his arguments reek of ones I've seen before and he's not being accountable to overarching issues. This effort I'm putting out goes very much against the koch bros and ALEC, who put a lot of money into astroturfing. I busted a group that was following me for perhaps a year.

    Conservative political forums-manipulation

    Surveying uses the principles of fairness that are supposed to be found in law, and is perhaps responsible for some of them. But cordy leaves out the frauds that are possible with government with surveying, just as he does with the constitution. Using interpretation as a final authority when the people are by the 9th, the "rightful masters" as they can define rights.

    I've worked as a surveyor for 30 years, and cordy might know that, so chose that analogy. But I have massive experience with BLM perpetuating frauds over 100 years old in order to make tidy boundaries for the forest service and avoid setting any precedents that the people might use to protect the original boundaries of old deeds.

    What the BLM dis was so confounding, baffling with BS; where the work a California surveyor did with my help and knowledge of the survey histories in Santa Barbara, recovering monuments 130 years old, was absolutely exceptional; that this petition form was not even conceived of to present the matter until 2 years ago.

    Petition to BLM Drector
    Last edited by ChrisABrown; 11-04-17 at 06:01 PM.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordelier View Post
    Again, there is already provision in the Constitution to change the government... they're called elections.

    If you're talking about changing the government through non-democratic means, then I'd have to say that such actions would be entirely unconstitutional. As I said before, the 9th Amendment isn't the Constitution's self-destruct switch.
    Hmm, I never described anything non democratic, in fact I've used the word "marjority". But your selectivity exposes an agenda.

    Petitions to state legislations in a MAJORITY is democratic, but outside of the political system that is completely corrupt.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordelier View Post
    Absolutely... but that has nothing to do with the 9th Amendment. The Constitutional amending formula is covered by Article V.
    Then if the people do not like the interpretation they redefine it and the courts have no lawful option except change their interpretation. You've failed to show they have any other lawful course.
    What authority do you think the people use to redefine the constitution so the courts interpretations are constitutional? They use the 9th.

    If the states created the federal constitution and gave it authority, then Article V is in control of 3/4 of the states.

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    Hmm, I never described anything non democratic, in fact I've used the word "marjority". But your selectivity exposes an agenda.

    Petitions to state legislations in a MAJORITY is democratic, but outside of the political system that is completely corrupt.
    Chris, if you have a majority supporting a change in government, that can easily be accomplished in the next election, can it not?

    And if your aim is to amend the Constitution, and your majority is large enough, that can be accomplished through the amending formula put forward in Article V.

    So I'm still puzzled why you keep bringing up the 9th Amendment. Perhaps it'd help the debate if you tell me what you expect the 9th Amendment to do that the electoral process and/or a constitutional amendment cannot?

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    Re: The Ultimate Purpose Of The Right To Free Speech - Re-established through the 9th AMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    What authority do you think the people use to redefine the constitution so the courts interpretations are constitutional? They use the 9th.

    If the states created the federal constitution and gave it authority, then Article V is in control of 3/4 of the states.
    But the 9th Amendment doesn't guarantee any rights... it just says that there are rights that exist that aren't enumerated within the Constitution, but it gives no guidance whatsoever as to what those rights are. Accordingly, if you want to make a case for the existence of a specific right, you have to look beyond the 9th Amendment. All the 9th Amendment gives you is the canvas to paint on... the quality of the picture depends on your hand.

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