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Thread: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    Hmm, that is a pretty common reaction, but the language is simple.



    It clearly includes everything not listed in the constitution, but the question is WHY?
    It's quite simple really. An exhaustive listing of The Rights Of Man, to bring Paine into it, is impossible. A complete listing is impossible for our rights, but a complete listing of the powers of government is very easy. Rights and powers are 2 different things.

    Good topic though. Do I have a right to walk down the beach at sunset? Of course I do, but there is no sense in incorporating that into the BOR.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    Hmm, that is a pretty common reaction, but the language is simple.



    It clearly includes everything not listed in the constitution, but the question is WHY?
    Its purpose is the same as all of the rights contained in the bill of rights and that is to limit the power of federal government.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    I've determined over the years that their seems to be great intimidation among the people at even discussing their 9th Amendment right, and how to use it. There is basically a great deal of confusion about what it is for. Unfortunately this is somewhat consistent across the spectrum of our rights.

    Basically, there is almost no sense of an ability to use any of our rights for a specific purpose, nor is there a common acceptance of the notion that rights have a vital purpose in defending and enforcing the constitution itself. No one really talks about how to use them.

    This thread is to gather opinion upon the proposition that the 9th Amendment may be the most important right of all. If so, what is it for, how do we use it?

    "I do not think you can use the Ninth Amendment unless you know something of what it means. For example, if you had an amendment that says “Congress shall make no” and then there is an ink blot and you cannot read the rest of it and that is the only copy you have, I do not think the court can make up what might be under the ink blot if you cannot read it."

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I would say the broader purpose of the 9th is to affirm that all rights (not just those enumerated) belong to the People, and that to impose restriction on any course of action of any individual, the burden is not on the citizen to prove why he should have this right, but on government to prove why he should not.
    I like that, and can recall in practice that I've seen good government acting just as you suggest.

    What I'm headed towards here is where entities have taken a space that the masses need, and the entities will not reasonably share.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post

    "I do not think you can use the Ninth Amendment unless you know something of what it means. For example, if you had an amendment that says “Congress shall make no” and then there is an ink blot and you cannot read the rest of it and that is the only copy you have, I do not think the court can make up what might be under the ink blot if you cannot read it."
    Ahh, I agree. However, if the people decide it says something, then it says that, and such shall not be denied or disparaged.

    However, "the people" imply a majority if I'm not mistaken, when it comes to that kind of definition. I mean since we are republic that guarantees a democractic form of government which must respect the principles of the republic.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    "But how do state Cituzens use that"

    Its explained in article 5

    "what could the 9th have do do with using Article V?"

    Nothing at all.

    Have you figured out a right that falls under the 9th amendment yet?

    The 9th amendment is mostly a historical curiosity. Everything that is a right has mostly been defined or derived from another part of the document and what hasnt has already been written off as a privilege
    Hmmm, but what is required for Article 5's clause, "all amendments must have constitutional intent"(paraphrased) to be realized when all rights are not listed? State powers do not allow legislators to define rights, so it must be the people using the 9th in the case of an essential right not listed.

    Now we must examine what it takes to compel state legislations to recognize rights not listed, but retained and not to be denied or disparaged. History might be curious, but our future requires many things that are not known, and the 9th can fill that requirement well, but we must learn how to use it.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    It's quite simple really. An exhaustive listing of The Rights Of Man, to bring Paine into it, is impossible. A complete listing is impossible for our rights, but a complete listing of the powers of government is very easy. Rights and powers are 2 different things.

    Good topic though. Do I have a right to walk down the beach at sunset? Of course I do, but there is no sense in incorporating that into the BOR.
    A critical point in historical philosophy underlying the development of law to being with. Good points!

    My point is becoming revealed. We need to control a federal government that has become overbearing and intrusive that seems to be colluding with entities that are destructive to unalienable rights. Therein is a basic use of the 9th Amendment, to define unalienable rights and then use Article 5 to see them listed by controlling states to do so.

    But, there is a critical element of functionality missing.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    A critical point in historical philosophy underlying the development of law to being with. Good points!

    My point is becoming revealed. We need to control a federal government that has become overbearing and intrusive that seems to be colluding with entities that are destructive to unalienable rights. Therein is a basic use of the 9th Amendment, to define unalienable rights and then use Article 5 to see them listed by controlling states to do so.

    But, there is a critical element of functionality missing.
    No matter how well thought out, how well written, no political document is perfect. Ours is pretty darn good IMO.

    Madison was naïve in thinking the judiciary would be the last bulwark against tyranny. Any government is made up of humans, and humans are inherently corrupt when power and influence and money are involved.

    Our principles and documents are good, but humans quickly become corrupt and subvert the rule of law.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    No matter how well thought out, how well written, no political document is perfect. Ours is pretty darn good IMO.

    Madison was naïve in thinking the judiciary would be the last bulwark against tyranny. Any government is made up of humans, and humans are inherently corrupt when power and influence and money are involved.

    Our principles and documents are good, but humans quickly become corrupt and subvert the rule of law.
    I agree completely.

    The people are the ones designated to have or define rights not listed, but logically it would be their majority opinion that would make a right one that could be listed. Logically, and consistent with the intents of the constitution, such an overview of rights, or the need for one not listed, by a large number of people tends to nullify corruption when there is an ability to conduct a full public evaluation of the issue surrounding the need to define and list a right that is not listed.

    That one feature or ability to conduct mass evaluation seem to be what is missing and very likely responsible for the corruption having so much control for so long.

    Therefore, it seems that states Citizens must find an agreement upon constitutional intent that is at the foundation of the constitution and its purpose. And, such an agreement or its inherent authority is a use and application of the 9th Amendment as far as I can tell.

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    Re: The Peoples Use Of Their Right - 9th AMD

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisABrown View Post
    I agree completely.

    The people are the ones designated to have or define rights not listed, but logically it would be their majority opinion that would make a right one that could be listed. Logically, and consistent with the intents of the constitution, such an overview of rights, or the need for one not listed, by a large number of people tends to nullify corruption when there is an ability to conduct a full public evaluation of the issue surrounding the need to define and list a right that is not listed.

    That one feature or ability to conduct mass evaluation seem to be what is missing and very likely responsible for the corruption having so much control for so long.

    Therefore, it seems that states Citizens must find an agreement upon constitutional intent that is at the foundation of the constitution and its purpose. And, such an agreement or its inherent authority is a use and application of the 9th Amendment as far as I can tell.
    Well, George Bush is famously quoted calling the Constitution "just a piece of paper", or words to that effect. He had hired lawyers subvert the law and thereby institutionalize torture within the federal government. Point being, again, no matter how well written the law is, corrupt humans will find a way to subvert it, and if the good humans refuse to punish the bad humans, the bad guys win. That is where we are now on the continuum--the bad guys have won. Apologies for the cynicism, but that's just the way it is.

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