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Thread: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Cigar View Post
    That's Odd, because there are people out there who Hate Cops and will now expect your support for their right to Hate Cops and march in protest.
    People have a legal right to hate whomever they so choose. They only cross the line when their hatred morphs into "incitement" to harm others, which is a crime.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesBY View Post
    UIIC, as we all know, has the right to preach. The question is that by designating such a group as a hate church, is their free speech being restricted?

    In fact, the answer remains "no". They can preach and advertise all they want, just the same as the Klan, the RC, and any of us.

    I agree. However, they've been protesting under the general assumption that they were a minority group just standing up against oppression. Now, they're in the same grouping as the KKK, etc., so instead of being welcomed with open arms as they were at the Trayvon Martin rallies, they now fit into the groups the Boston Mayor told to "get out" and that they are not welcome.

    That's a huge shift that is bound to restrict the rights they once enjoyed to free speech without societal opposition.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    Actually, they are doing just that, but until the SPLC gave them a "hate" designation, they did so without the stigma they now face.

    Well, this group is identical in ideology to the ones you mention, only the skin color of the "chosen" is different.
    Have never heard of this group, and can't watch the video where I'm at, but if their messaging is the same as the Nazis, then **** them too. I will fully support any group to achieve the ability to be who they want to be, right up until those rights infringe upon others' ability to do the same.
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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    Have never heard of this group, and can't watch the video where I'm at, but if their messaging is the same as the Nazis, then **** them too. I will fully support any group to achieve the ability to be who they want to be, right up until those rights infringe upon others' ability to do the same.
    Have you ever noticed that narrow interpretations of a religion are often behind this kind of thing?
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    Have you ever noticed that narrow interpretations of a religion are often behind this kind of thing?
    I think hate is a powerful lens from behind which to view the world, and can pervert and convert pretty much anything that gets in its way or can be used as a tool. I mean, I think hate can also be understandable sometimes, especially in the marginalized, but it's only ever a destructive force.
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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    My concern is that by designating individual groups as "hate groups," we're effectively creating an atmosphere that restricts their free speech.

    The IUIC has a right to preach what they feel is the truth, even though others may feel threatened or offended. It just so happens that in this specific case, this group feels as though they are the chosen race.

    That's not really different from some schools of thought that claim those of today's Jewish descent are really the chosen people.

    And, it's not a far removed from the white supremacists who believe the white race is superior.

    The question is not so much whether these various groups/churches have the right to free speech -- we know they do -- it's whether being designated a hate group has the effect of infringing on that right.

    Is the "hate" label a form of social engineering designed to make society put pressure on specific groups to silence them?

    This is an especially interesting case, because not only is this church racist in nature, it's also a religion, so it comes under another protective constitutional classification.
    Do you have any examples in which the designation of "hate" in conjunction with a specific group, as impeded the group's free speech rights? It seems to me numerous groups rendered as "hate" groups have enjoyed considerable success publicly expressing their message as a result of free speech.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution and 4th president of the United States.

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by NotreDame View Post
    Do you have any examples in which the designation of "hate" in conjunction with a specific group, as impeded the group's free speech rights? It seems to me numerous groups rendered as "hate" groups have enjoyed considerable success publicly expressing their message as a result of free speech.
    The most recent case I can think of was in Boston when the counter-protesters shouted down the protesters (all of whom have "hate" designations) and the planned speakers could not complete their speeches.

    On a more personal note, we've seen employers firing workers for taking part in these protests.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/resta...e-rally-2017-8

    An employer certainly has a right to do just that, but it puts pressure on others to remain silent and in the shadows.

    That's my point with the new designation of "hate" for the church. Before, the group was seen as standing up for minority rights, but now that they have the label of "hate group," what sort of reception will they receive?
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    Criticism is fine -- it's also a form of free speech.

    I'm thinking more of the groups like Antifa that shout-down protesters or use physical violence to stop them from holding free speech rallies. I'm also thinking about the pressure this type of social engineering has had on employers who immediately cringe when they find an employee is part of a "hate" group and fire them.

    All those things, minus the violence, are not illegal, but do they infringe on free speech?

    This church believes that blacks are superior and that, come judgement day, whites will be their slaves. Why is it "hate" to preach what they believe? Now that they are designated as a hate group, will the church members be fired from their jobs?

    Do you see how social engineering can infringe on free speech?
    I think you exaggerated the extent people pay attention to the label "hate." For instance, you are assuming employers investigate whether some group or assemblage of people have been designated a "hate" group before determined whether to fire an employee for belonging to the group. I'm not convinced this is true.

    If the employee belongs to a group espousing beliefs of racial superiority, gender superiority, ethnic/national superiority, I'm doubtful the employer ascertains whether the group or message has the official designation of "hate," before terminating the employee. Employers are, as I believe many of us are, capable of discerning whether some message or group is racially divisive, morally repugnant, hateful, distasteful, and repulsive.

    Some employers terminated those employees in attendance at the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, not because they belonged to a designated "hate" group, but as a result of their participation in a message the employer deemed repugnant, repulsive, and quite possibly detrimental to their profits and work environment.

    I'm not convinced the designation of "hate" is as important as you suggest.


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    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution and 4th president of the United States.

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post

    On a more personal note, we've seen employers firing workers for taking part in these protests.
    Restaurant fires man for attending Charlottesville rally - Business Insider

    An employer certainly has a right to do just that, but it puts pressure on others to remain silent and in the shadows.

    That's my point with the new designation of "hate" for the church. Before, the group was seen as standing up for minority rights, but now that they have the label of "hate group," what sort of reception will they receive?
    The most recent case I can think of was in Boston when the counter-protesters shouted down the protesters (all of whom have "hate" designations) and the planned speakers could not complete their speeches.
    I am not seeing the connection between the Boston example above and the "hate" designation. The counter-protesters did not engage in the conduct on the basis the other group of people were designated as a "hate" group. The counter-protesters were participating in their own rally because they personally determined the message of the other group was racially divisive, repugnant, and repulsive.

    Before, the group was seen as standing up for minority rights, but now that they have the label of "hate group," what sort of reception will they receive
    I am not convinced the broader public and society places as much an emphasis on the designation as you suggest. Instead, people are focused on the content of the message as opposed to the label designated to the group. It is the content of the message, as opposed to the label, which is the basis of the objection for broader society and the wider public.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution and 4th president of the United States.

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    Re: A Hate Church Makes a Case for Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    See my signature for why this isn't so.
    Your sig supports hate speech
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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