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Thread: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

  1. #11
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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Soooo many people seem to think it should be, and worse, because it isn't, it's not worth it.
    Yep.

    Abridging rights out of expediency, is never the answer. It is the utmost insult and disrespect to those, the families, and the progeny, of those Americans that shed their blood for the Constitution. It is also turning our backs on our children, and our children's children.

    Count me & mine out of anything to do with abridging Constitutional Rights!
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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The author is an idiot. Not a thing bad that happened had a thing to do with the 1A or the 2A -- it was all already illegal -- and restricting either is a stupid, bad, reactionary impulse.

    Restricting rights is not the answer. The impulse to do so is authoritarian.
    We restrict gang fights all the time, stopping them before they begin. How was this any different from staging a good old fashioned rumble?

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    There were news reports and photos of heavily armed demonstrators. They weren't id'd as far as right, left or center. Were the numbers over reported? With people fighting and armed with firearms, I am impressed no one was killed by gunfire.
    Exactly!

    For all the hoopla, there was no gunfire. So it seems the 1st & 2nd managed to coexist.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Rights are guaranteed in the Constitution, and enforced through government, law enforcement, and the courts.

    Since we are a Constitutional Republic, there really is no choice but to enforce the law regardless of the costs. We cannot constitutionally abridge rights due to difficulty in guaranteeing them. The only other choice, is to amend the Constitution. I found this last choice repugnant, if done to take the easy and lazy way out.

    Freedom is not easy, folks. It takes a great deal of effort and courage. Otherwise, it tends to erode away ...
    Yep. This is the cost of living in a free society. But I am more than willing to live with that cost, than have our rights restricted.
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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Exactly!

    For all the hoopla, there was no gunfire. So it seems the 1st & 2nd managed to coexist.
    I would not want to keep testing the theory.

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Yep.

    Abridging rights out of expediency, is never the answer. It is the utmost insult and disrespect to those, the families, and the progeny, of those Americans that shed their blood for the Constitution. It is also turning our backs on our children, and our children's children.

    Count me & mine out of anything to do with abridging Constitutional Rights!
    As Jefferson said, better to live with the problems of too much freedom than those of too little.
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    It would have been perfectly legal for the authorities to ban all guns from the demonstration, just as authorities can ban guns at other political rallies. Guns can be banned from state government property without violating the 2nd Amendment, especially when there are safety concerns.

    How many people want to bet that the same authorities would never condone a Black Lives Matter group to show up more heavily armed than the police, as the neo-Nazis did here?

    The authorities have an obligation to also protect the free-speech rights of the counter-demonstrators, and that includes making sure that they are not intimidated by neo-Nazis being more heavily armed than the police. The neo-Nazis intentionally show up armed as they did in the hopes that this will intimidate people to the point that they will not show up to counter-protest them, which effectively denies them their freedom of assembly under the First Amendment.

    First Amendment rights have always been given greater protection than Second Amendment rights.

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    For me it boils down to this: Is the movement (KKK, BLM, AntiFA, MADD, MRA, PETA, Balding blind midgets against mullets, whatever) seeking to correct an inequality or impose an inequality. Further, there should be no grey area, and one should err on the side of free speech, if this question is difficult to answer, until it can be determined that the movement is seeking to impose an inequality.

    However, the moment that a movement has been correctly determined to seek the imposing of inequality, all bets are off. This does not mean they cannot write their twisted manifestos in dark basements on old typewriters, but they should be given no permission to use public land paid for by taxes collected from the people they wish to marginalize, nor should any private venue be obliged to host them, and if they do then no security should be provided by publicly funded services (aka, the police), except to contain them and prevent them from harming others.

    If this rule of thumb were applied, then the KKK, who clearly seek to impose inequality, would never have had their rally, AntiFa never would have shown up, and three people would still be alive.
    IMO, free speech covers all the gauntlets, and it should never be suppressed. However, as in real life, if what you say pisses people off to the point that they want to kick your ass, well, expect an ass-kicking. You shout at black people, calling them N-words, or shout at Jews that they need to stoke the ovens, you know you are asking for an ass-kicking. Hell, you walk up to Joe on the street, call him a mother****er who eats dry horse****, chances are one out 5 is gonna kick your ass.

    So, the argument is---do people have a right to knowingly instigate a gang fight, an armed gang fight at that?

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoverness View Post
    Yep. This is the cost of living in a free society. But I am more than willing to live with that cost, than have our rights restricted.
    Exactly.

    Freedom has it's cost!

    It sounds to me like this small town's law enforcement was simply overwhelmed. So do we eliminate rights due to a defect in our ability to enforce the law? Or do we do a better job enforcing the law and protecting rights? That is the question posed here.

    In practical terms you have to bring in more law enforcement, perhaps from the state level or even from the feds. This is what was done during the Civil Rights era. We didn't rollover, then. Rather, we rose to the occasion.
    Last edited by Chomsky; 08-16-17 at 11:58 AM. Reason: spelling
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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    Re: When the 1st Clashes with the 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    As Jefferson said, better to live with the problems of too much freedom than those of too little.
    Well said ...
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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