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Is the division of church and state on shaky ground?

FastPace said:
What are you even talking about? Are you a Democrat? Why do you even vote when you are absolutely ignorant of your party let alone the political history of the USA. MLK ever ring a bell in your head about the history of Civil Rights in the USA given you want to imply gay marriage is linked to that? MLK was reared Republican but switched over to the Democrats after the Kennedy's got him out of jail. He had a PH.D. but it wasn't in law or physics for gender studies. It was in theology. He was a pastor. The Black Church has always been the seat of political power in the Black-American community. Always.

James T. Meeks: Salem Baptist Church of Chicago in Chicago, Illinois - Famous PastorsFamous Pastors

James_Meeks.jpg



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Sharpton

220px-Al_Sharpton_January_2015.jpg





Are you going to stop Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and all the many Protestant Democratic pastors from ending their off-handed endorsements of US Politicians and the Democratic Party in their churches? No. And I mean: NO.

That law only applies to Catholics and the American Catholic Church. Period. The US Catholic Church is the only one to actually attempt to follow US Federal law.

Anyways... "No taxation without representation. Some conservative Catholics for years--decades actually--have been speculating maybe it is time for the US Catholic Church to give up its tax exempt status so it can officially endorse candidates.

In terms of holding political office Pope John Paul II made it clear no Catholic Priest is to hold a secular political office. A Priest or Bishop did campaign and get elected somewhere in Latin America a decade or so back, if I remember correctly, but he got approval from the Pope in Rome with the condition he was removed from the priesthood. Something like that. My memory is vague on it.

I mean if... you're Bill Clinton or any Democratic Politician if you get in trouble you run to the Protestant Church to rehabilitate your image. Or you just show up to the Black Church which has always been a strong political power in the Democratic Party since the end of the 1960s.



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Might want to tread lightly there kid,
First of all I am an Independent voter might want to look that up .
Cause every-time I criticize the Democrats I automatically become a Republican
When I criticize the Republican some party line walker looking to score points calls me a Democrat.
Sorry to bust your bubble but you are mistaken.
I marched for Civil rights in Flint Michigan and other cities.
I noticed of all the people you mentioned you didn't mention Medgar Evans a great man shot down in his driveway at the begining of the Civil rights movement.

As far as some Church involvement in politics I will admit to that.
However as we all know anything done in excess will to often lead to problems .
Example, I n 1961 there were some outsourcing of American jobs and some imports coming in nobody thought anything about it.
Today there are more outsourcing of American jobs , today there are more imports and America is 15 trillion in debt and owe the Chinese 1.5 billion.
So if the Churches move on politics in excess WELL???:peace
 
Logicman said:
Not a chance. They didn't want a state sponsorship of a particular religion, but they had no animosity to religion other than that.

Most of the founding fathers were believers of one sort or another. They even attended church services in government buildings for almost a century after the fight for independence.

Here's a good read that is probably at odds with your views.

The Moral Foundations of America

https://righterreport.com/2011/07/16/the-moral-foundations-of-america-2/
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Where in the constitution does it say churches should not pay taxes. Personally I think they should pay double
 
presluc said:
I know a little bit about the Constitution, like Freedom of press but the leader of America says the press is Fake news.:peace
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He's excercising his right to free speech. Were you pissed off when Obama did it? I bet you were ok with that.
 
presluc said:
Should not all Americans support the progress of America and the prosperity of the American people you don't have to support any political party to support that, and you don't have to belong to any. You can be Independent like me and forget about looking for the Conservatives or the Liberals and look for what's right and what's wrong.:peace
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Of course I support that. It's the #1 reason I oppose the Libbo-communist agenda.
 
presluc said:
Well Corporations bitched about regulations then they went crying like a bitch to the government "which gets their money from taxpayers" for 740 million dollars in bailouts.
How many conservatives backed that plan?:peace
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What are you even talking about?
 
FastPace said:
Censorship? Oh you mean like the moral controversy started by Al Gore and his wife that this famous song was made in response to the Climate Change Gore's promotion od traditional morality?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipper_Gore



Emphasis placed in red mine.

Democrats are always ignorant of their own party. Period. And Democrats are told by their Democratic leaders they are the de facto Holy Israel that has never and can never do no wrong, pure and white as the driven snow, the most pure secularist the world has ever know. Utter BS.

It's a party of warmonger sociopaths and psychopaths. And so are the Republicans.

Or so Gerald Celente, and Italian New Yorker raised Catholic, thinks so. He votes for neither party and says for those of us that have (such as myself) we are complicit in mass scale murder. He has a point. Partly why I stopped voting for some time before Trump and Bernie emerged claiming they were going to shake and rattle the status quo.









https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Celente
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I have but 1 small problem with your post there kid, a correction if you will in my humble opinion.

Democrats and Republicans and Republicans are ignorant of their own party.
And some Independents are trying to go in disguise like the Tea Party right wing on acid, Libertarian right wing incognito
Please, true Independents make fun of these so called actors.

For the record every scandal you put up about Democrats I could match it with one concerning Republicans like these.
Cunningham sold defense contracts while he was a Congressmen
Foley you should know.
Craig I wasn't flirting with a man in the men's restroom.
Nixon Tapes what tapes.
G.W. Bush waves at Stevie Wonder during a concert.
Need I continue?
Question; are the true patriotic Americans to look to the future and try to make America better , or are we to sit around dragging up the past crimes of stupid politicians???:peace
 
JamesBY said:
Men and women use spiritual values and secular ethics to inform their moral decisions. That is perfectly fine.

But organized religion should never be allowed to influence the state. If a sect does so, the sect must lose its tax-free status.
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Agreed:peace
 
joG said:
Odd. I would have thought that religions should be knee deep in policy issues. Most policies have ethical implications. Evaluating their comparative value and explaining the comparisons is a central mandate of religions.
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Really answer these then why are there no school prayers anymore?
Why is it you used to walk into a store and the banner said "MERRY CHRISTMAS" TODAY IT'S" HAPPY HOLIDAYS"
There was an indecent at a state park where there was a place for the 10 commandments on the ground somebody made a comment about that.
Religion may be into politics but not that deep and I don't want them to be.:peace
 
X Factor said:
Ok, and again, what would you like to do about religious folks participating in politics?
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Nothing, but keep the law of Division of Church and state, that way if they cross the line no tax exempt.:peace
 
Fishking said:
Except that didn't happen. In fact, all the historically Christian nations have more equality and have a better track record on human rights (not perfect mind you) than any other religious majority regions or governments based on atheism. Hmmmm...nah...it will totally be the American Taliban :roll:
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Yeah other nations doing well also have universal health care. So maybe Christian nations want universal healthcare to keep track of those human rights.:peace
 
apdst said:
He's excercising his right to free speech. Were you pissed off when Obama did it? I bet you were ok with that.
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Yes I was Obama was a wimp but I thought Trump was supposed to be this macho guy.
A couple of questions to the press Secretary some bad press and Trump wines about fake news and stop picking on me COME ON???:peace
 
vegas giants said:
Where in the constitution does it say churches should not pay taxes. Personally I think they should pay double
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Where in the Constitution does it say the church SHOULD pay taxes?
 
presluc said:
Already bend through that.
The question remains the same,
Is the division of Church and state on shaky ground?
Can you answer that.?:peace
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Made another post which answered it already. Refer to post 17.
 
presluc said:
Question; are the true patriotic Americans to look to the future and try to make America better , or are we to sit around dragging up the past crimes of stupid politicians???:peace
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If you are really an Independent then I can appreciate that. If in fact I misunderstood your post #1 to be completely one sided and pro-Democratic Party then I stand corrected.

Today is not year circa 1965 though and neither the Soviet Union, [former] Cold War, or the same problems Black-Americans had exist. New problems exist. And even assuming some stream of though, or sect within Christianity is a problem, it is least among the problems facing the USA today.

Well... maybe liberal Christianity is a huge problem because most its zealot crusaders subscribe blindly to post-modern, anti-rational views.





And unlike you I don't view Americanism as part of the solution, I view it as part of the problem. I view political offices as ecclesiastical in nature. If I were President of the USA it would weigh on me (as a cross to bear) as being say... the Pope of Rome. Because I view accountability before God in both positions as the same. That is to say I do not think God will be easier on Bill Clinton than he will be on Pope Benedict the 16th. But Americans think they are smarter than God. No, you all do. You all think you are soooooo clever, that you all will outwit and lawyer talk Jesus into confusion and win your case to be given a "not guilty" verdict. Hell, you do it here on earth why not to Jesus! Right?

"I was just running a country, Boss!"

"You can't fault me for that! Wall Street told me I had to protect the dollar!"

"Those Arabs, their countries, homes, businesses and livelihood we destroyed... they weren't Americans, 'The Freest People on Earth', you've got to appreciate that, Boss?"

"I was not the Pope or a small parish priest, Boss, only they ought be held accountable for their sins, I was the star and toast of the town, Boss!"

The Boss judges rich, poor, celebrated and non-celebrated, kings, queens, and presidents alike. And he judges Americans right beside Syrians, Russians, and skinny black men sleeping on the jungle floors of the Congo. Being American is not going to get us a "get out of jail free card."
 
Well look at it this way...if a religious man who prays is in office, at least you'll know where his hands are...:giggle1:
 
Logicman said:
Where in the Constitution does it say the church SHOULD pay taxes?
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Where does it say in the Constitution that any nominee must get permission from the Church to run for president.
You sound religious A quote for you from the bible "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's unto God that which is God's.":peace
 
presluc said:
Already bend through that.
The question remains the same,
Is the division of Church and state on shaky ground?
Can you answer that.?:peace
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As I said the question remains the same with an amendment without an Amendment.
Last Time I'll listen to some jake legged preacher on a talk show telling how great Trump was on one hand and lieing about the division of Church and State on the other.:peace
 
presluc said:
There has been rumors that the Republican party wishes to repeal this amendment of division of Church and State.:peace
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The Johnson Amendment you speak of is not part of the constitution, so it can't be repealed. There's no distinct "Division of Church and State" amendment, so that can't be repealed. There is the first amendment that, regarding religion, states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

I have heard zero rumors what so ever of the Republicans seeking to repeal the 1st amendment or a portion of the 1st amendment. What's more, appealing of an amendment requires an amendment itself, a process that would almost certainly require far more than just Republicans being on board.

It's a big non-issue as it relates to what you're specifically talking about in your OP.
 
presluc said:
Some time ago a President Johnson submitted an amendment to the Constitution basically saying that since Organized Religion did not pay taxes they should be limited on their involvement with politics.
I agree with this I have faith in God. Religion should not be allowed to endorse any political leader unless done privately as a private citizen nor should they criticize any political party while at church.

There has been rumors that the Republican party wishes to repeal this amendment of division of Church and State.
Well the Republican parties main voter base id Religion so they would win.

However although many might say I don;t care about politics, this has nothing to do with me.
A question; after Organized Religion gets their hands into politics you think there will stop there?
What of legalized Marijuana
What of Same sex marriages
What of abortion
What of censorship
What of Freedom of the press
Freedom of speech
Organized Religion might set their sights on these as well.:peace
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It is already the law that not for profit organizations are not allowed to endorse or campaign for any political candidate or political party.

We do have The First Amendment that allows us to exercise our religious faith and the right to speak our opinions however we see fit to do that.

So while we cannot endorse a political candidate or political party and retain our not-for-profit status, there is nothing to prevent us for standing up for principles and causes we believe in. If those causes or principles also happen to be endorsed by one or more political candidates or political parties, so be it. That is not against the law nor should it be.

And should we relinquish our not-for-profit status and the tax benefits that come with that, it still does not remove our right to freedom of religion and/or freedom of speech.
 
presluc said:
Where does it say in the Constitution that any nominee must get permission from the Church to run for president.
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It doesn't, nor have I ever claimed that.

presluc said:
You sound religious A quote for you from the bible "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's unto God that which is God's.":peace
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The Will of God -

1998 Word of Knowledge Given to Perry Stone regarding the Will of God was that George W. Bush become the 43rd President of the United States.
 
presluc said:
the division of Church and State on the other.:peace
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Trying to understand what you're going on and on about here.

Is your issue with Preacher's giving their opinions regarding politics?

Is your issue with Church's being able to gain Tax Exempt status?

Or is your issue only when those two things collide? IE the Church is given tax exempt status and yet they still give their opinion.

Also, a question for you....which amendments of the Constitution do you believe restrict what individual citizens can do as opposed to what the government can do?
 
Zyphlin said:
Trying to understand what you're going on and on about here.

Is your issue with Preacher's giving their opinions regarding politics?

Is your issue with Church's being able to gain Tax Exempt status?

Or is your issue only when those two things collide? IE the Church is given tax exempt status and yet they still give their opinion.

Also, a question for you....which amendments of the Constitution do you believe restrict what individual citizens can do as opposed to what the government can do?[/QUOTE}

It seems the Mods have brought to my attention that calling you "kid" was out of line .
I assure you sir it was not my intention to make you feel bad or to say you are not intelligent
However I do apologize. for any misgivings.:peace
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presluc said:
Zyphlin said:
Trying to understand what you're going on and on about here.

Is your issue with Preacher's giving their opinions regarding politics?

Is your issue with Church's being able to gain Tax Exempt status?

Or is your issue only when those two things collide? IE the Church is given tax exempt status and yet they still give their opinion.

Also, a question for you....which amendments of the Constitution do you believe restrict what individual citizens can do as opposed to what the government can do?[/QUOTE}

It seems the Mods have brought to my attention that calling you "kid" was out of line .
I assure you sir it was not my intention to make you feel bad or to say you are not intelligent
However I do apologize. for any misgivings.:peace
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As far as my issue, sir, it lies with the possibilities of not only protestant, but also Muslim, Jewish, Buddhism, and other Churches becoming involved in the political process. Would Religious people be calm about this or???:peace
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