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Is the division of church and state on shaky ground?

governments have been regulating marriage for a very long time

anyone you ever met have to get a marriage license to be 'legally' married & how looooooong has this been going on???????????

See? You demand government regulation and then pitch a fit when the government regulates. Don't cry about Conservatives, if that's the case.
 
See? You demand government regulation and then pitch a fit when the government regulates. Don't cry about Conservatives, if that's the case.


I didn't demand **** but there you go again; putting words in my mouth just like you did in the other thread earlier today ...............


keep stirring those pots ............. you seem to be pretty good @ it ...........
 
Some time ago a President Johnson submitted an amendment to the Constitution basically saying that since Organized Religion did not pay taxes they should be limited on their involvement with politics.
I agree with this I have faith in God. Religion should not be allowed to endorse any political leader unless done privately as a private citizen nor should they criticize any political party while at church.

There has been rumors that the Republican party wishes to repeal this amendment of division of Church and State.
Well the Republican parties main voter base id Religion so they would win.

However although many might say I don;t care about politics, this has nothing to do with me.
A question; after Organized Religion gets their hands into politics you think there will stop there?
What of legalized Marijuana
What of Same sex marriages
What of abortion
What of censorship
What of Freedom of the press
Freedom of speech
Organized Religion might set their sights on these as well.:peace

What are you even talking about? Are you a Democrat? Why do you even vote when you are absolutely ignorant of your party let alone the political history of the USA. MLK ever ring a bell in your head about the history of Civil Rights in the USA given you want to imply gay marriage is linked to that? MLK was reared Republican but switched over to the Democrats after the Kennedy's got him out of jail. He had a PH.D. but it wasn't in law or physics for gender studies. It was in theology. He was a pastor. The Black Church has always been the seat of political power in the Black-American community. Always.

James T. Meeks: Salem Baptist Church of Chicago in Chicago, Illinois - Famous PastorsFamous Pastors

James_Meeks.jpg

Pastor James T. Meeks is the founder and senior pastor of Salem Baptist Church of Chicago, which has been recognized as one of the fastest growing megachurches in the United States. Salem is the largest African American church in Illinois with over 15,000 members.

In 2002, Pastor Meeks successfully ran for Illinois state senator. His win made him the first Independent legislator ever elected to the Illinois Senate. He served three terms, where his major focus was on educational equity. During his time in office, he served in positions of leadership including chair of the Education committee as well as joint chairman of the Illinois Legislative Black Caucus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Sharpton

220px-Al_Sharpton_January_2015.jpg


Alfred Charles Sharpton Jr.[2] (born October 3, 1954) is an American civil rights activist, Baptist minister, television/radio talk show host[3][4] and a former White House adviser who, according to 60 Minutes, became President Barack Obama's "go-to black leader."[5] In 2004, he was a candidate for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. presidential election.


Are you going to stop Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and all the many Protestant Democratic pastors from ending their off-handed endorsements of US Politicians and the Democratic Party in their churches? No. And I mean: NO.

That law only applies to Catholics and the American Catholic Church. Period. The US Catholic Church is the only one to actually attempt to follow US Federal law.

Anyways... "No taxation without representation. Some conservative Catholics for years--decades actually--have been speculating maybe it is time for the US Catholic Church to give up its tax exempt status so it can officially endorse candidates.

In terms of holding political office Pope John Paul II made it clear no Catholic Priest is to hold a secular political office. A Priest or Bishop did campaign and get elected somewhere in Latin America a decade or so back, if I remember correctly, but he got approval from the Pope in Rome with the condition he was removed from the priesthood. Something like that. My memory is vague on it.

I mean if... you're Bill Clinton or any Democratic Politician if you get in trouble you run to the Protestant Church to rehabilitate your image. Or you just show up to the Black Church which has always been a strong political power in the Democratic Party since the end of the 1960s.




President Bill Clinton - Remarks to Church of God in Christ
 
What of censorship

Censorship? Oh you mean like the moral controversy started by Al Gore and his wife that this famous song was made in response to the Climate Change Gore's promotion od traditional morality?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipper_Gore

Mary Elizabeth "Tipper" Gore (née Aitcheson; born August 19, 1948) is an American author, photographer, and social issues advocate who was Second Lady of the United States from 1993 to 2001, and the wife of Al Gore, the 45th Vice President of the United States, from whom she is currently separated.

Gore rose to prominence for her work with the Parents Music Resource Center (PMRC), voicing strong opinions and advocating censorship, for the labeling of record covers of releases featuring profane language, especially in the heavy metal, punk and hip hop genres.[2] She has advocated for mental health, homelessness, women and children. Gore has also been an LGBT rights activist since her husband was in office, which was rare for a second lady and against her husband's beliefs at the time.

Emphasis placed in red mine.

Democrats are always ignorant of their own party. Period. And Democrats are told by their Democratic leaders they are the de facto Holy Israel that has never and can never do no wrong, pure and white as the driven snow, the most pure secularist the world has ever know. Utter BS.

It's a party of warmonger sociopaths and psychopaths. And so are the Republicans.

Or so Gerald Celente, and Italian New Yorker raised Catholic, thinks so. He votes for neither party and says for those of us that have (such as myself) we are complicit in mass scale murder. He has a point. Partly why I stopped voting for some time before Trump and Bernie emerged claiming they were going to shake and rattle the status quo.


Gerald Celente - No "In God We Trust" to Trust: Cryptocurrency Trend to Grow



Gerald Celente, "Fatima: Russia Cannot Be Stopped!"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Celente

Gerald Celente (born November 29, 1946) is an American trend forecaster,[1][2] publisher of the Trends Journal, business consultant[3] and author who makes predictions about the global financial markets and other events of historical importance. Celente has described himself as a "political atheist" and "citizen of the world".[4] He has appeared as a guest on media outlets such as CNN, The Oprah Winfrey Show, The Today Show, Good Morning America, CBS Morning News, The Glenn Beck Show, NBC Nightly News, The Alex Jones Show, Coast to Coast AM and Russia Today.[5][6][7]

Celente was born in The Bronx, New York City, New York. He had early political experience running a mayoral campaign in Yonkers, New York, and served as executive assistant to the secretary of the New York State Senate. From 1973 to 1979 Celente traveled between Chicago and Washington D.C. as a government affairs specialist.[8] In 1980 Celente founded The Trends Research Institute (at first called the Socio-Economic Research Institute of America), now located in Kingston, New York, publisher of the Trends Journal which forecasts and analyzes business, socioeconomic, political, and other trends.[9]
 
Some time ago a President Johnson submitted an amendment to the Constitution basically saying that since Organized Religion did not pay taxes they should be limited on their involvement with politics.
I agree with this I have faith in God. Religion should not be allowed to endorse any political leader unless done privately as a private citizen nor should they criticize any political party while at church.

There has been rumors that the Republican party wishes to repeal this amendment of division of Church and State.
Well the Republican parties main voter base id Religion so they would win.

However although many might say I don;t care about politics, this has nothing to do with me.
A question; after Organized Religion gets their hands into politics you think there will stop there?
What of legalized Marijuana
What of Same sex marriages
What of abortion
What of censorship
What of Freedom of the press
Freedom of speech
Organized Religion might set their sights on these as well.:peace
Men and women use spiritual values and secular ethics to inform their moral decisions. That is perfectly fine.

But organized religion should never be allowed to influence the state. If a sect does so, the sect must lose its tax-free status.
 
governments have been regulating marriage for a very long time

anyone you ever met have to get a marriage license to be 'legally' married & how looooooong has this been going on???????????

Cuban, you are a cool enough dude. But the secular governments got involved in promoting marriage kind of like they eventually got involved in the education of children. Both used originally began with religious institutions (in the post-fall of the pagan Western World eras, that would be Christianity).

The Catholic Church was originally against Civil Marriages. Which is the position it should take now in my view. But the secular government got involved in the matrimony business because political philosophers have viewed the family as the basic foundation of any country. If the family goes (akin to the basic foundation of a building) so goes the country. That was the view of political philosophers.

So, why view the family as the basic foundation? For a number of reasons. But two examples would be:

(1) Military. Contrary to what most Americans think a nations soldiers do not originate in its "boot camps." They originate in a nation's families. And the values and endurance of a nation's families will be reflected that nations military. If you find widespread gangs in American society, transsexual popularity to enter all fields as a "right," or heroin, opioid, and cocaine use in American society, then you will find it in the US military.

(2) Parents are primary educators of country's/ethnicities mores and values. It is the parents who first indoctrinate the child into the beliefs, mores, and values of a country or ethnicity. "Do or don't do x, y, z... because..."




Gangs in the Military



Navy SEALs talk publicly about drug abuse in the ranks

CBS Evening News
 
Cuban, you are a cool enough dude. But the secular governments got involved in promoting marriage kind of like they eventually got involved in the education of children. Both used originally began with religious institutions (in the post-fall of the pagan Western World eras, that would be Christianity).

The Catholic Church was originally against Civil Marriages. Which is the position it should take now in my view. But the secular government got involved in the matrimony business because political philosophers have viewed the family as the basic foundation of any country. If the family goes (akin to the basic foundation of a building) so goes the country. That was the view of political philosophers.

So, why view the family as the basic foundation? For a number of reasons. But two examples would be:

(1) Military. Contrary to what most Americans think a nations soldiers do not originate in its "boot camps." They originate in a nation's families. And the values and endurance of a nation's families will be reflected that nations military. If you find widespread gangs in American society, transsexual popularity to enter all fields as a "right," or heroin, opioid, and cocaine use in American society, then you will find it in the US military.

(2) Parents are primary educators of country's/ethnicities mores and values. It is the parents who first indoctrinate the child into the beliefs, mores, and values of a country or ethnicity. "Do or don't do x, y, z... because..."










yep, governments, militaries, religions = the greatest reasons why the planet is ****ed beyond belief ...........
 
yep, governments, militaries, religions = the greatest reasons why the planet is ****ed beyond belief ...........

Welp, I would like to disagree with you, but on a certain level you have a point.


*And I'm pretty religious.*
 
Actually it is deeply involved in the affairs of man, and so is the government. They compete and sometimes collide.

The difference between the church and the state is the state has an army, it can send anyone to jail, it can tax everyone, and it can make laws that apply to all. it can ever set up dual standards. The church does not have an army, it cannot jail citizens for not going to church, it can only collect taxes on a volunteer basis; tithes, and it can make laws; 10 Commandments, but only for people to follow on a volunteer basis.

The government is the large 200 pound bull male, while the church is the 100 pound skinny kid. Separation of church and state was there to prevent the bull male state from becoming a bully, using the extra powers it has at its disposal. Henry VIII, who was the king of England who started the Church of England allowed the state to decree changes in the church to suit his needs. This is what the Constitution tries to prevent. The state has too many bully means.

We could run a social experiment to show why the church is far more vulnerable and therefore needs help separating itself from the state. We can take turns, allowing the state and then the church use their powers to control the other, each for six months. The State can use all its advantages. It can bring in armies and police It can make new laws that it can enforce with jail, and its can send in the IRS,to control the church resources.

What can the church do other than the slow boat rode of impacting public opinion. They can't bring in an army or make new laws or even tap into the IRS. All they have is a long election process that can be rigged from within the state. Who has the capacity to be the bigger and better bully? Who needs to be protected?

The left wants the 200 pound bull male state, to make new rules and laws that say that the 100 pound skinny kid needs to be handcuffed so it does not attack the 200 pound bull male. They live in this upside down world.
 
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governments have been regulating marriage for a very long time

anyone you ever met have to get a marriage license to be 'legally' married & how looooooong has this been going on???????????

The purpose of a marriage license is to get it recorded with the county recorder so as do document the marriage as legal and in force for tax purposes, and to legally glean any advantages that happen to be available to married persons only. It also was used to make transfer of assets from a deceased married couple to their children easier and less likely to wind up in court or straight out have them stolen out from under them by other family members. It also creates a legal family with both parents legally responsible for their offspring.

A marriage license gives simple legal protection. Many laws have been written around it to create civil unions, etc. but the most common is "common law" where there are no guarantees things will go as logically as they would in a bona fide marriage during a break up.

Simply put, it keeps it simple, and you don't need to spend a buttload on lawyers.
 
IMO religion needs to be kept as far away from politics as possible, and politics needs to be kept as far away from religion as possible

It won't work. Christian politicians will continue to present and pass Bible-based laws, etc., whenever possible. Oh, they'll just wrap them up in secular language / arguments, but the net effect will be the same.

One also has to remember, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God" (Psalm 9:17).

America has been largely a God/Christianity believing country for some 200 years, and we have prospered greatly.

if we want the rise of The American Taliban, then go ahead & mix the two; see what we get ........

Christianity isn't remotely akin to the American Taliban. Just don't vote for the latter.
 
Some time ago a President Johnson submitted an amendment to the Constitution basically saying that since Organized Religion did not pay taxes they should be limited on their involvement with politics.
I agree with this I have faith in God. Religion should not be allowed to endorse any political leader unless done privately as a private citizen nor should they criticize any political party while at church.

There has been rumors that the Republican party wishes to repeal this amendment of division of Church and State.
Well the Republican parties main voter base id Religion so they would win.

However although many might say I don;t care about politics, this has nothing to do with me.
A question; after Organized Religion gets their hands into politics you think there will stop there?
What of legalized Marijuana
What of Same sex marriages
What of abortion
What of censorship
What of Freedom of the press
Freedom of speech
Organized Religion might set their sights on these as well.:peace

Odd. I would have thought that religions should be knee deep in policy issues. Most policies have ethical implications. Evaluating their comparative value and explaining the comparisons is a central mandate of religions.
 
It won't work. Christian politicians will continue to present and pass Bible-based laws, etc., whenever possible. Oh, they'll just wrap them up in secular language / arguments, but the net effect will be the same.

One also has to remember, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God" (Psalm 9:17).

America has been largely a God/Christianity believing country for some 200 years, and we have prospered greatly.



Christianity isn't remotely akin to the American Taliban. Just don't vote for the latter.

This country was founded by people that wanted government and religion to never mix. Many many of us will fight to keep it that way
 
Religion is already in politics. Everyone wants to force their beliefs on others, to some extent. Religious folks are no better or worse in that regard.

Once again (from me) -- it depends. I don't believe "Everyone wants to force their beliefs on others" but there are some who definitely wish for that outcome. Then there is the problem that SOME believe that any religion which is not theirs is little more than weird, perverted beliefs being forced upon them if they aren't allowed to discriminate against those others. When you are, or have been, the King of the Hill, being 'forced' to accept that not all believe the same is seen by some as oppression; never mind what was done in the past.

Some religious folks are better than others, but better always depends upon one's personal feelings and beliefs.
 
There is no amendment in the Constitution which states what you say here. There IS a regulation in the IRS tax code however that says it. Regulations and laws are not the same as a Constitutional amendment. I believe that you are confusing the 1st Amendment which many say is where the separation of church and state clause is with the tax laws.

Already bend through that.
The question remains the same,
Is the division of Church and state on shaky ground?
Can you answer that.?:peace
 
I know that. Are you advocating some sort of mechanism to ensure people are not bringing their religious beliefs into their politics?

Don't know if you have noticed or not but America is already a divided country.
If one religion gets into politics deeper others will follow.
The political system of America is far from perfect but it is without organized religion's deeper encroachment on who get's nominated and who gets elected.:peace
 
If you take the tax exempt status away from churches (synagogues, mosques, temples, whatever), you'll break down the wall of separation, but not in the direction you're worried about.

If all Religious organizations get into politics deeper you will have no division of Church and State but it might not go the direction you think.:peace
 
Don't know if you have noticed or not but America is already a divided country.
If one religion gets into politics deeper others will follow.
The political system of America is far from perfect but it is without organized religion's deeper encroachment on who get's nominated and who gets elected.:peace

Ok, and again, what would you like to do about religious folks participating in politics?
 
If so its a pipe dream at best. It would be impossible to regulate what politicians may and may not advocate for without seriously hindering any and all political discourse in the Senate and Congress.

Right back to division on of Church and State or is it a division of State and Church..
No Church wants the Federal government in their business why would any American politician want Church in their business.:peace
.
 
You should support the Conservatibe agenda, if you oppose a big, overreaching government. For some reason, you don't.

Should not all Americans support the progress of America and the prosperity of the American people you don't have to support any political party to support that, and you don't have to belong to any. You can be Independent like me and forget about looking for the Conservatives or the Liberals and look for what's right and what's wrong.:peace
 
The only "division of church and stste" is the 1st Amendment when it says "Congress shall make no law establishing religion". And, that's all it says. It doesn't restrict political speech in a church house.

I know a little bit about the Constitution, like Freedom of press but the leader of America says the press is Fake news.:peace
 
If you don't like government regulating marriage, then get the government out of the marriage business. Liberals want the government to regulate marriage, then bitch when the government regulates marriage.

Well Corporations bitched about regulations then they went crying like a bitch to the government "which gets their money from taxpayers" for 740 million dollars in bailouts.
How many conservatives backed that plan?:peace
 
The problem is the first amendment and the ability of the government to police who is breaking the "speech law".

Many ethnic churches are ignored for mixing politics and the pulpit, and are not ashamed to tell their flock how to vote. One of the reasons churches are tax exempt is the get most of their revenue from donations. the other things are mostly contributions that are sold like bake sales, etc. There just isn't a lot there compared to the trillions in other non-profits that are political.

BTW, church paychecks are taxed.

Not just do the ethnic minority churches use their speech but they also organize get out the vote activities.
 
IMO religion needs to be kept as far away from politics as possible, and politics needs to be kept as far away from religion as possible

if we want the rise of The American Taliban, then go ahead & mix the two; see what we get ........

Except that didn't happen. In fact, all the historically Christian nations have more equality and have a better track record on human rights (not perfect mind you) than any other religious majority regions or governments based on atheism. Hmmmm...nah...it will totally be the American Taliban :roll:
 
This country was founded by people that wanted government and religion to never mix. Many many of us will fight to keep it that way

Not a chance. They didn't want a state sponsorship of a particular religion, but they had no animosity to religion other than that.

Most of the founding fathers were believers of one sort or another. They even attended church services in government buildings for almost a century after the fight for independence.

Here's a good read that is probably at odds with your views.

The Moral Foundations of America

https://righterreport.com/2011/07/16/the-moral-foundations-of-america-2/
 
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