Why we have an electoral college [W:196]

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

Actually Hamilton says it is to allow those few elite who know and can be trusted to make that decision over the people.

It has nothing to do with a democracy because a popular vote electing the President would not be democracy anyways so your comment is both factually wrong as well as irrelevant.

Click to expand...

Hamilton does not say elites
Yes it would be democracy, which is a Great Evil as a form of goverment.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

the founders talked over the election of the president, and having the people direct the president would be the best choice in a practical sense, however Madison knew it would not work, this is why he advocates for mixed government concerning the president and the senate, because people are easily lead seduced and beguiled into doing things which are not in their interest, which is why democracy fails.

the top part is Madison , where it see Mr. Madison...... the bottom part is someone's commentary on Madison.

voting in early America is not a right, its privilege of government, to vote you have to own land and pay taxes, slaves, women did not vote, white people who did not meet the Qualifications requisites by the state could not vote either.

3/5th clause was a compromise of the north and south, with the south at first wanting slaves to count as 1 because they knew they would get more representation in the house, but the north stated if slaves are 1 person, then they cannot be slaves they have to be free men, which the south rejected.

also if they had been counted as 1, while the south would receive more representation, they would have had to paid more in taxes to the federal government.

our mixed government which is 1 of our separation of powers is modeled off of the roman empire to prevent tyranny of the majority

Click to expand...

error in posting..... should be Read Roman republic, not Roman empire

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

And why let a little thing like historical truth to get in the way of that modern explanation?

Here is Alexander Hamilton from his Federalist 68 explaining why have the Electoral College



Hamilton says it was to give the actual choice - not to people regardless of where they lived - but to men most capable ... men who had the information and discernment necessary to pick somebody they liked if the masses picked somebody who failed to meet with the approval of this elite body so empowered.

In simple English - the Constitution created the EC to thwart the will of the people if this elite body did not like the will of the people.

No nonsense about who lives where or the city mouse and the country mouse and all that goes with it.

Se lets all get on the same page of reality here as to why we really have the EC.

Click to expand...

I think we should all get on the same page and realize we do have the EC and live with the results of the election.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

the electoral college is not a failure per the founders, the problem today is the electors are elected by the parties, in early america the people elected the electors.

dont blame the system, put the blame where it belongs, on the parities.

Click to expand...

The system has been corrupted, but it was corrupted a long time ago before the modern parties really took form. Starting in the 1820's, the system began taking on the "winner-take-all" method. By 1836, South Carolina was the only state that didn't use this method.

In 1872 it became universal, where every state used the "winner-take-all" system.Colorado in 1876 was the last state to use the legislature to pick the electors.

The electoral college is a failure because it has almost never done what it was intended to do: have the most capable people doing the voting.

It's a design flaw.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

Hamilton does not say elites
Yes it would be democracy, which is a Great Evil as a form of goverment.

Click to expand...

He describes them so perfectly so as you could use his words to define ELITES in the dictionary.

Very small groups of men selected for their discernment and knowledge to perform the task of electing the President rather than the people who voted is by nature an elite group.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Tucker Case said:

The system has been corrupted, but it was corrupted a long time ago before the modern parties really took form. Starting in the 1820's, the system began taking on the "winner-take-all" method. By 1836, South Carolina was the only state that didn't use this method.

In 1872 it became universal, where every state used the "winner-take-all" system.Colorado in 1876 was the last state to use the legislature to pick the electors.

The electoral college is a failure because it has almost never done what it was intended to do: have the most capable people doing the voting.

It's a design flaw.

Click to expand...

Nope no corruption at all unless you consider the electors that refuse to vote the way the people in their state want them to.

States are free to assign their electors however they want.

Nope the electoral college works exactly how it is supposed to work.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

He describes them so perfectly so as you could use his words to define ELITES in the dictionary.

Very small groups of men selected for their discernment and knowledge to perform the task of electing the President rather than the people who voted is by nature an elite group.

Click to expand...

wrong because you cant read what Hamilton is saying properly, and this is not the first time you failed in reading Hamilton.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Tucker Case said:

The system has been corrupted, but it was corrupted a long time ago before the modern parties really took form. Starting in the 1820's, the system began taking on the "winner-take-all" method. By 1836, South Carolina was the only state that didn't use this method.

In 1872 it became universal, where every state used the "winner-take-all" system.Colorado in 1876 was the last state to use the legislature to pick the electors.

The electoral college is a failure because it has almost never done what it was intended to do: have the most capable people doing the voting.

It's a design flaw.

Click to expand...

who would the most capable be?

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

wrong because you cant read what Hamilton is saying properly, and this is not the first time you failed in reading Hamilton.

Click to expand...

I gave you his exact words. You gave me your usual use of them as a jumping off point to give me your unique interpretation of reality.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

I gave you his exact words. You gave me your usual use of them as a jumping off point to give me your unique interpretation of reality.

Click to expand...

please show the word "elite" from hamilton

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

please show the word "elite" from hamilton

Click to expand...

Why would that exact word be necessary when what he described is obviously an elite group which can thwart the will of the people based on what he thinks is the information they have and their discernment?

It was desirable that the sense of the people should operate in the choice of the person to whom so important a trust was to be confided. This end will be answered by committing the right of making it, not to any preestablished body, but to men chosen by the people for the special purpose, and at the particular conjuncture.

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

Click to expand...

If I say I intend to snuff out the last breath of air from a person and make sure they never darken the world again - does it matter that I did not use the word MURDER or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I am going to take five gallons of gasoline and soak your furniture and light a match on it - does it matter that I did not use the word ARSON or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I want to take a bat and glove and play on the diamond for nine innings against another team - does it matter that I did not use the word BASEBALL or does anyone with common sense know what game is going to be played?

Hamilton clearly and undeniably is describing a tiny small elite group of people empowered to overrule the will of the people if they believe that will needs to be thwarted. No other conclusion can be made by a rational person with common sense who reads his words and understands that the EC system he is discussing does just that.

e·lite
əˈlēt,āˈlēt/Submit
noun
1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities

Click to expand...

538 people empowered to act overruling the decision of scores and scores of millions because they are believed to have special abilities or qualities as Hamilton described they had, is indeed an elite body by every possible definition. If you have common sense and are rational.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

Why would that exact word be necessary when what he described is obviously an elite group which can thwart the will of the people based on what he thinks is the information they have and their discernment?



If I say I intend to snuff out the last breath of air from a person and make sure they never darken the world again - does it matter that I did not use the word MURDER or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I am going to take five gallons of gasoline and soak your furniture and light a match on it - does it matter that I did not use the word ARSON or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I want to take a bat and glove and play on the diamond for nine innings against another team - does it matter that I did not use the word BASEBALL or does anyone with common sense know what game is going to be played?

Hamilton clearly and undeniably is describing a tiny small elite group of people empowered to overrule the will of the people if they believe that will needs to be thwarted. No other conclusion can be made by a rational person with common sense who reads his words and understands that the EC system he is discussing does just that.

538 people empowered to act overruling the decision of scores and scores of millions because they are believed to have special abilities or qualities as Hamilton described they had, is indeed an elite body by every possible definition. If you have common sense and are rational.

Click to expand...

Except the political parties chose the electors, often through a nominating, or voting process or by service or dedication to the political party in question. They aren't elites, they are changed every election. Their job is to represent the popular vote in each state and respond accordingly. Electors may not be people in service to the Federal government so that leaves current elected representatives and senators out of the mix and electors are often up and coming politicians within the political parties. Your abstract twisting of Hamilton's words is noted because he never used the word elite, although he could just clearly mean electors as representatives of the people placing their popular votes within their state.

Your clinging to the idea they are somehow elites is ironic considering they are chosen from within the party loyalists in each state and hold no power or sway at the federal level. Its hard to argue they are elitists except in that they are active in local political circles. Have you examined the electors in various states to put your theory to the test? Do you recognize many of the names on a national level?

Re: Why we have an electoral college

reinoe said:

And when you take out all the illegal immigrants that Obama that were told by Obama to vote in this election, Hillary might not have even won the popular vote.

Click to expand...

Really? Do you have ANY proof, whatsoever, that such is happening? Illegal immigrants are not allowed to vote. To do so would be voter fraud.

Illegal immigrants are not allowed to vote. If by some oft chance, a few did legal / illegal gymnastics, risking jail time or deportation for the sake of registering ONE vote, the sum total of those did not make a dent in the vote for either candidate. It is illogical to think people would risk so much for so little.

Can we deal with more facts and less emotion in our arguments?

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Lutherf said:

There was a lot of discussion regarding the fact that Hillary won the popular vote and should therefore have won the election. The fact of the matter is that we DO elect our president via popular vote but we do so indirectly. Your vote counts at the state level and then the states vote for president. You might not like it but that's the way it works.....and here's why the system was designed that way -

Politico has the popular vote count at 62.5M for Hillary and 61.2 M for Trump. That's a difference of 1.3M votes and I've heard suggestions that the final total will be Hillary by more than 2 million votes. That's a pretty compelling argument but if you look into it:

PRESIDENT
From the LA County Recorder's office, Hillary got over 2.1 million votes in the county while Trump got less than 700k.

That alone is 1.4 million of Hillary's overage.

Here's the NY Times figures for NY.
http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/new-york

The 5 Boroughs that are generally considered to be New York City are Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten Island. If you look at the votes in those boroughs you'll find that Hillary beat Trump by 1.5 Million votes.

Just TWO CITIES accounted for roughly 150% of Hillary's popular vote win.

THAT, folks, is why we have an electoral college. It prevents the possibility that voters in just two cities can control the election of a president.

Click to expand...

but our current winner take all system condenses the election down to a few states called 'swing states'.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Masterhawk said:

but our current winner take all system condenses the election down to a few states called 'swing states'.

Click to expand...

That is because the current parties have calcified their supporters, it is not a flaw in the electoral system but rather a flaw in the two party political system.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

OpportunityCost said:

Except the political parties chose the electors, often through a nominating, or voting process or by service or dedication to the political party in question. They aren't elites, they are changed every election. Their job is to represent the popular vote in each state and respond accordingly. Electors may not be people in service to the Federal government so that leaves current elected representatives and senators out of the mix and electors are often up and coming politicians within the political parties. Your abstract twisting of Hamilton's words is noted because he never used the word elite, although he could just clearly mean electors as representatives of the people placing their popular votes within their state.

Your clinging to the idea they are somehow elites is ironic considering they are chosen from within the party loyalists in each state and hold no power or sway at the federal level. Its hard to argue they are elitists except in that they are active in local political circles. Have you examined the electors in various states to put your theory to the test? Do you recognize many of the names on a national level?

Click to expand...

Nothing you said changes the reality that a small group of elites that Hamilton described can thwart the choice of the American people. It matters not if you know their names. they are elects by the power they possess.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

Nothing you said changes the reality that a small group of elites that Hamilton described can thwart the choice of the American people. It matters not if you know their names. they are elects by the power they possess.

Click to expand...

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

Why would that exact word be necessary when what he described is obviously an elite group which can thwart the will of the people based on what he thinks is the information they have and their discernment?



If I say I intend to snuff out the last breath of air from a person and make sure they never darken the world again - does it matter that I did not use the word MURDER or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I am going to take five gallons of gasoline and soak your furniture and light a match on it - does it matter that I did not use the word ARSON or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I want to take a bat and glove and play on the diamond for nine innings against another team - does it matter that I did not use the word BASEBALL or does anyone with common sense know what game is going to be played?

Hamilton clearly and undeniably is describing a tiny small elite group of people empowered to overrule the will of the people if they believe that will needs to be thwarted. No other conclusion can be made by a rational person with common sense who reads his words and understands that the EC system he is discussing does just that.

538 people empowered to act overruling the decision of scores and scores of millions because they are believed to have special abilities or qualities as Hamilton described they had, is indeed an elite body by every possible definition. If you have common sense and are rational.

Click to expand...

you said "exact words".....where is the word "elite"

haymarket said:

I gave you his exact words. You gave me your usual use of them as a jumping off point to give me your unique interpretation of reality.

Click to expand...

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

nothing you said changes the reality that a small group of elites that hamilton described can thwart the choice of the american people. It matters not if you know their names. They are elects by the power they possess.

Click to expand...

"mixed government"

Re: Why we have an electoral college

In all likelihood, Adolf Hitler would not have been Chancellor in 1933 if the Weimar Republic had an Electoral College. If the many Germanic states had individual representation in a national election, Hitler would have never been able to collect a plurality (as he was loathed by all of the northern Germanic states, especially Prussia). As it was, the Nazi's came into power via direct popular vote.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

ludin said:

Nope no corruption at all unless you consider the electors that refuse to vote the way the people in their state want them to.

States are free to assign their electors however they want.

Nope the electoral college works exactly how it is supposed to work.

Click to expand...

This is just factually incorrect. Read federalist 68.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

who would the most capable be?

Click to expand...

Those who are "most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice."

People who "possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations."

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Fender said:

In all likelihood, Adolf Hitler would not have been Chancellor in 1933 if the Weimar Republic had an Electoral College. If the many Germanic states had individual representation in a national election, Hitler would have never been able to collect a plurality (as he was loathed by all of the northern Germanic states, especially Prussia). As it was, the Nazi's came into power via direct popular vote.

Click to expand...

The Nazi's seized power before the election of 1933. Hitler was appointed chancelor by von Hindenberg prior to Nazi seizure of power as well.

The Nazi's did not come to power because of a direct popular vote.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

you said "exact words".....where is the word "elite"

Click to expand...

Yes, I gave you his exact words and he perfectly described system placing the power to pick he President in the hands of a small group of elites.

Why would that exact word be necessary when what he described is obviously an elite group which can thwart the will of the people based on what he thinks is the information they have and their discernment?



If I say I intend to snuff out the last breath of air from a person and make sure they never darken the world again - does it matter that I did not use the word MURDER or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I am going to take five gallons of gasoline and soak your furniture and light a match on it - does it matter that I did not use the word ARSON or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I want to take a bat and glove and play on the diamond for nine innings against another team - does it matter that I did not use the word BASEBALL or does anyone with common sense know what game is going to be played?

Hamilton clearly and undeniably is describing a tiny small elite group of people empowered to overrule the will of the people if they believe that will needs to be thwarted. No other conclusion can be made by a rational person with common sense who reads his words and understands that the EC system he is discussing does just that.

538 people empowered to act overruling the decision of scores and scores of millions because they are believed to have special abilities or qualities as Hamilton described they had, is indeed an elite body by every possible definition. If you have common sense and are rational.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

Yes, I gave you his exact words and he perfectly described system placing the power to pick he President in the hands of a small group of elites.

Why would that exact word be necessary when what he described is obviously an elite group which can thwart the will of the people based on what he thinks is the information they have and their discernment?



If I say I intend to snuff out the last breath of air from a person and make sure they never darken the world again - does it matter that I did not use the word MURDER or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I am going to take five gallons of gasoline and soak your furniture and light a match on it - does it matter that I did not use the word ARSON or does any rational person with a modicum of common sense know what I am threatening to do?

If I say I want to take a bat and glove and play on the diamond for nine innings against another team - does it matter that I did not use the word BASEBALL or does anyone with common sense know what game is going to be played?

Hamilton clearly and undeniably is describing a tiny small elite group of people empowered to overrule the will of the people if they believe that will needs to be thwarted. No other conclusion can be made by a rational person with common sense who reads his words and understands that the EC system he is discussing does just that.

538 people empowered to act overruling the decision of scores and scores of millions because they are believed to have special abilities or qualities as Hamilton described they had, is indeed an elite body by every possible definition. If you have common sense and are rational.

Click to expand...

Move out of the country then. Its been that way for centuries.

You say elites, I say representative electors based on our method for enacting laws.