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Liberals and the call for abolishing the Electoral College

Fishking

Fishking

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So...I've been seeing this push by the left to get rid of the electoral college. There is one huge reality that seems to be completely missed, or just not understood. Yes, Hillary won the popular vote but that's because of an extremely populous and bias state in California, giving Hillary 2.7 million more votes than Trump.

So the left sees this popular vote and thinks that means something. It doesn't. It really, really doesn't. To get rid of the EC it would take a constitutional amendment. Guess what that will take? 2/3 of the states ratifying it. Trump won 30 states with is 60% of the states. The cold hard reality is that there is only one party that is anywhere close to amending the Constitution and it's Republicans.

Further, as was pointed out in another thread, Republicans crushed Democrats in state level legislators and executives.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...emocrats-have-been-decimated-state-level.html

If even in Democrat favorable years, they are no where close to making any amendments to the Constitution. So settle in, people, nothing is changing in your favor anytime soon but it may change against you, if anything.
 
Fishking said:
So...I've been seeing this push by the left to get rid of the electoral college. There is one huge reality that seems to be completely missed, or just not understood. Yes, Hillary won the popular vote but that's because of an extremely populous and bias state in California, giving Hillary 2.7 million more votes than Trump.

So the left sees this popular vote and thinks that means something. It doesn't. It really, really doesn't. To get rid of the EC it would take a constitutional amendment. Guess what that will take? 2/3 of the states ratifying it. Trump won 30 states with is 60% of the states. The cold hard reality is that there is only one party that is anywhere close to amending the Constitution and it's Republicans.

Further, as was pointed out in another thread, Republicans crushed Democrats in state level legislators and executives.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...emocrats-have-been-decimated-state-level.html

If even in Democrat favorable years, they are no where close to making any amendments to the Constitution. So settle in, people, nothing is changing in your favor anytime soon but it may change against you, if anything.
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Not really, it can be defacto abolished without a constitutional amendment
 
Fishking said:
So the left sees this popular vote and thinks that means something. It doesn't. It really, really doesn't. To get rid of the EC it would take a constitutional amendment. Guess what that will take? 2/3 of the states ratifying it. Trump won 30 states with is 60% of the states. The cold hard reality is that there is only one party that is anywhere close to amending the Constitution and it's Republicans.
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Yep, the Republicans have been given their rope and let's see if they hang themselves with it. If the economy fails to keep improving, the middle class fails to be protected (as Trump claims) and the jobs situation either doesn't change or gets worse then 2018 and 2020 may be really good years for the Dems. Republicans have no more room for bitching.
 
Crovax said:
Not really, it can be defacto abolished without a constitutional amendment
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Sorry, it's in the Constitution and therefor cannot be abolished.
 
Praxas said:
Yep, the Republicans have been given their rope and let's see if they hang themselves with it. If the economy fails to keep improving, the middle class fails to be protected (as Trump claims) and the jobs situation either doesn't change or gets worse then 2018 and 2020 may be really good years for the Dems. Republicans have no more room for bitching.
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Irrelevant. Even in good years for Democrats they are no where near passing an constitutional amendment.
 
Fishking said:
Irrelevant. Even in good years for Democrats they are no where near passing an constitutional amendment.
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Never said they were close. My advice to liberals and Dems is to let Republicans hang themselves and prove that they cannot lead. I will be quite happy if I am proven wrong. I just don't think I will be given the cabinet picks.
 
Fishking said:
Sorry, it's in the Constitution and therefor cannot be abolished.
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I didnt say it could be abolished, I said it could be defacto abolished. Was I not clear enough?
 
Crovax said:
I didnt say it could be abolished, I said it could be defacto abolished. Was I not clear enough?
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blue states can vote to allow all their electoral votes go to the national popular vote champion.

that doesn't defacto abolish the EC. it defacto gerrymanders the EC.
 
Crovax said:
Not really, it can be defacto abolished without a constitutional amendment
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By the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact? If so I agree. Almost definitely Constitutional.
 
ARealConservative said:
blue states can vote to allow all their electoral votes go to the national popular vote champion.

that doesn't defacto abolish the EC. it defacto gerrymanders the EC.
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It would make the EC irrelevant as the popular vote winner would become the president. It would do the exact same thing as if the EC was abolished and a popular vote was to take its place. I dont think we should have a popular vote but I was simply pointing out that it can be done easier than the OP thinks even though the OP is wrong as a constitutional amendment takes 3/4ths of the states not 2/3rds
 
Praxas said:
Never said they were close. My advice to liberals and Dems is to let Republicans hang themselves and prove that they cannot lead. I will be quite happy if I am proven wrong. I just don't think I will be given the cabinet picks.
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I think the only thing that has been proven in modern times is that neither party can lead.
 
ARealConservative said:
blue states can vote to allow all their electoral votes go to the national popular vote champion.

that doesn't defacto abolish the EC. it defacto gerrymanders the EC.
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There would be no way to effectively integrate popular votes with EV votes. California would still be limited to 55 EVs and, if they portioned it out, it would actually basically hand an easier election to the Republicans.
 
Anagram said:
By the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact? If so I agree. Almost definitely Constitutional.
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The Electoral College is in the Constitution. There is no way to get rid of it without a constitutional amendment. None.
 
Crovax said:
It would make the EC irrelevant as the popular vote winner would become the president. It would do the exact same thing as if the EC was abolished and a popular vote was to take its place. I dont think we should have a popular vote but I was simply pointing out that it can be done easier than the OP thinks even though the OP is wrong as a constitutional amendment takes 3/4ths of the states not 2/3rds
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the EC abolished would be permanent. What you are proposing is just another mechanism for people currently in control to make course correction that would help them this election. it would be as bad as redrawing boundaries for purposes of winning.
 
ARealConservative said:
the EC abolished would be permanent. What you are proposing is just another mechanism for people currently in control to make course correction that would help them this election. it would be as bad as redrawing boundaries for purposes of winning.
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No, it could be reinstated with another constitutional amendment also.
 
Fishking said:
The Electoral College is in the Constitution. There is no way to get rid of it without a constitutional amendment. None.
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It de facto eliminates it. 270 EV states agree to award their votes to the popular vote winner. The Constitution gives the states the right to decide how to appoint their electors.
 
I don't think you will ever see the EC abolished. As close as it could get is a change in the states so the EC isn't a winner take all in that state and instead the EC is split, which would be incredibly bad for Dems in places like NY and CA.
 
Crovax said:
No, it could be reinstated with another constitutional amendment also.
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that isn't realistic.

the defacto solution would become a ploy used by those in charge. It would change frequently. A blue state that was concerned with losing a national vote, would change their EC award for that election season. Then they would change it back. It would change constantly.

amendments being passed are about as likely as my ballot having someone from the Whig party on it.
 
ARealConservative said:
that isn't realistic.

the defacto solution would become a ploy used by those in charge. It would change frequently. A blue state that was concerned with losing a national vote, would change their EC award for that election season. Then they would change it back. It would change constantly.

amendments being passed are about as likely as my ballot having someone from the Whig party on it.
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No it wouldnt as many blue states have agreed to change their EC votes but none have done so as they wish to get enough states to make 270 votes, which is the goal to permanently have a popular vote victor.
 
Liberals and the call for abolishing the Electoral College
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would have been the same thing on the other side if it had flipped the opposite way. i don't support eliminating the EC. i support eliminating gerrymandering nationwide. that would make things a lot more fair.
 
Crovax said:
No it wouldnt as many blue states have agreed to change their EC votes but none have done so as they wish to get enough states to make 270 votes, which is the goal to permanently have a popular vote victor.
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it isn't an amendment though. they can change it to and fro and to again with a simple majority vote. You can be sure that is exactly what would happen too.
 
Fishking said:
Irrelevant. Even in good years for Democrats they are no where near passing an constitutional amendment.
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The Republicans have close to enough power to push an amendment through starting in Jan. Maybe they will do just that, but it will not be for abolishing the electoral college.
 
Crovax said:
It would make the EC irrelevant as the popular vote winner would become the president. It would do the exact same thing as if the EC was abolished and a popular vote was to take its place. I dont think we should have a popular vote but I was simply pointing out that it can be done easier than the OP thinks even though the OP is wrong as a constitutional amendment takes 3/4ths of the states not 2/3rds
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Nope...California would still get 55 EVs, Texas gets 38, Florida and New York 29, ect. You can't do a popular vote with that and there is no where near the control needed to make it happen. Republicans dominate the states.

-edit- And, yes, I mixed up filibuster proof with amendment.
 
The EC made some what sense in the 1700s when it took weeks to get polling results around the country. It does not make sense now.

Saying that, you can easily redo the EC so that it will always reflect the popular vote. Right now you have a system that best can be categorized as a minority dictatorship. Yes Trump won 30 states, but most of those states have no people in them, which is why he lost the popular vote.

But the best way would be to go to a popular vote count like every other democracy and yes "Republic" on the planet.

Will it happen? no, because the GOP benefits hugely from the current system. They get to rig the election for the House of Representatives in their favor and with the control of more and more states, they also have the ability to change how those states give out their EC votes. I suspect that the GOP will push more and more for dividing them up according to massively gerrymandered congressional districts instead of winner takes all. It would ensure a GOP victory for a long time.
 
PeteEU said:
The EC made some what sense in the 1700s when it took weeks to get polling results around the country. It does not make sense now.
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insanity!

we would be facing a 50 state manually recount at the moment. it would be more difficult today then in the 1700's. More votes, more at stake means for passion and anger.

this is about as bad idea as exists. no surprise it comes from the left. they have zero clue how to govern effectively.
 
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