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Preamble to Bil of Rights part of the Constitution?[W:135]

I will indulge you for the moment to see if you can prove your claims. Can you provide any verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Constitution provided reasons for states actually ratifying Amendments beyond those contained in the Bill of Rights.... especially Amendments in the last century and a half?

No more than you can prove that it didn't. The Preambles define the mission or purpose of the Articles and Amendments, which does tell the citizens what the government is accountable for. The Preambles, nor even the Article 5, can give reason for, or ensure the passing any Amendments at anytime since the creation of the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Article 5 only outlines what government can do to "propose" an Amendment and the process required to ratify Amendments.

Again, you are missing the point of the Preambles. Both of them.
 
No more than you can prove that it didn't. The Preambles define the mission or purpose of the Articles and Amendments, which does tell the citizens what the government is accountable for. The Preambles, nor even the Article 5, can give reason for, or ensure the passing any Amendments at anytime since the creation of the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Article 5 only outlines what government can do to "propose" an Amendment and the process required to ratify Amendments.

Again, you are missing the point of the Preambles. Both of them.

One cannot necessarily prove something DID NOT HAPPEN. Its called proving a negative and is a fallacy.

If somebody alleges that there are three inch monkeys made of blue flame that play a version of basketball beneath the surface of Uranus - I cannot disprove that. But I do not have to as it is the total and complete responsibility of the person making the claim of fact to prove their claims.

If you claim something happened, it is totally incumbent upon you to prove it if challenged to do so.
 
"Yes". Obviously was it wasn't written as a legal instrument, implied or otherwise. But still it holds its own importance...just as the Preamble to the USC.

For the layperson, the simply written Preamble "establishes the intent of the Bill of Rights"...just like the Preamble of Constitution itself.

It is a mission statement, core values statement, and a visions statement - all rolling up in one. In other words, it clarified (in a very simple way) the basis for the Bill of Rights, and it tells We the People that it wasn't meant to be a set or static part of our Constitution or its processes, that it should continue to grow in order to protect American freedoms, including freedom of speech, religion, assembly, and due process of law. The creation of the BORs helped the ratification process of the Constitution as well.

Our government leaves claw marks when it has to surrender any of its powers. It doesn't like to be held accountable. It prefers to rule rather than govern. It would rather reduce our freedoms rather than increase them.

So I opine that the Preamble serves to explain its intent and is a reminder to both Government and the People as to why that our Bill of Rights exist and needs to continue to meet the future needs of protecting the People's freedoms.

On the side, what powers has the government surrendered, ever?

By way of the Unpatriot Act and other fairly recent legislation, including NDAA amendments, it has USURPED powers not delegated. I'm not aware of any power it has surrendered, ever, but I'm always happy to learn something new.
 
One cannot necessarily prove something DID NOT HAPPEN. Its called proving a negative and is a fallacy.

If somebody alleges that there are three inch monkeys made of blue flame that play a version of basketball beneath the surface of Uranus - I cannot disprove that. But I do not have to as it is the total and complete responsibility of the person making the claim of fact to prove their claims.

If you claim something happened, it is totally incumbent upon you to prove it if challenged to do so.

I claimed that it is possible. In fact, my very first word in my first reply to you, which ended with a period said, "Possibly".

But again, you're still not addressing your own OP. You asked, "Does anyone have verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights was ever ratified by enough states to become an official part of the US Constitution?"

My reply to YOUR question is that the Preambles, in and of themselves, didn't need to be ratified.
To simplify this, as stated in the following quote, Preambles do not convey any rights, by which the government must abide (in the Articles), or the citizens (in the Bill of Rights), but there's more. You're welcome to read on.

The Preamble of the U.S. Constitution, the famous first fifty-two words, which:

1) Introduces everything that is to follow in the Constitution’s seven articles and twenty-seven amendments.

2) It proclaims who is adopting this Constitution: “We the People of the United States.”

3) It describes why it is being adopted—the purposes behind the enactment of America’s charter of government.

4) And it describes what is being adopted: “this Constitution”—a single authoritative written text to serve as fundamental law of the land.
Written constitutionalism was an American innovation, and one that the framing generation considered the new nation’s greatest contribution to the science of government.


The word “preamble,” while accurate, does not quite capture the full importance of this provision. “Preamble” might be taken—we think wrongly—to imply that these words are merely an opening rhetorical flourish or frill without meaningful effect. To be sure, “preamble” usefully conveys the idea that this provision does not itself confer or delineate powers of government or rights of citizens. Those are set forth in the substantive articles and amendments that follow in the main body of the Constitution’s text.

https://constitutioncenter.org/inte...merinsky-and-michael-stokes-paulsen/interp/37

The same applies to the Preamble of the Bill of Rights. It too describes, in a different manner, the same as stated above.

So basically, I'm claiming that your question in your OP is immaterial and/or inconsequential.

If people choose not examine these Preambles...okay, it's their choice. But, the essences of what the Preambles are saying might give people a wee bit different perspective on the Constitution, both its articles and amendments. The essence of these Preambles might, no guarantees, but might remind our elected officials the whys, whats, and hows that they need to remember as they govern. Bottom line: They help We the People understand why our elected officials should be accountable...and to whom. How we (as individuals) react to the information contained in these Preambles...is obviously each individual's choice.

Look, in my opinion, we have a government that's learned how to protect itself from being accountable using the very instrument that was written to prevent that. For 240 years people who wind up in the Kingdom of Washington spend more time looking for loopholes to protect them from the same laws the citizens must abide by. To make themselves more privileged. None of these endeavors by members of our government have come from either Preamble. It might come from a form of neglect from both government and citizens to refer to both Preambles in order to rethink their roles in our form of government. Just sayin...
 
In various discussions, people have brought up the fact that there was a Preamble that was written that went with the first twelve proposed Amendments to the US Constitution. We know that ten were ratified and became known as The Bill of Rights. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights was ever ratified by enough states to become an official part of the US Constitution?


If so, please present it here.[/FONT][/COLOR]

the preamble and rationale, is still valid.
 
On the side, what powers has the government surrendered, ever?

By way of the Unpatriot Act and other fairly recent legislation, including NDAA amendments, it has USURPED powers not delegated. I'm not aware of any power it has surrendered, ever, but I'm always happy to learn something new.

I hear ya what your saying. I guess the point of that comment was in more of a historical perspective. When we examine the Bill of Rights that were created after the first ten, a good example of surrender of power came with say the 13th Amendment, which basically abolished slavery. And we know that a fair number of Framers were slave owners. Their personal wealth hinged on their ability to use free labor. The passing of that Amendment was not a happy day for many who voted that day. But that was a surrender of power, "in my opinion".

Maybe, from a technical standpoint, political parties within government, who run government, are the ones to "surrender powers". I'm also thinking, and could be wrong, but the Civil Rights Act might qualify. LBJ knew the moment it passed that the Democrats would be surrendering a significant voting base in the Southern states. To me, that's a surrender of power.

So it might well be a matter of semantics on my part. And I do understand your point. Government or members of parties within government have cleverly been legally removing themselves from being accountable in their Constitutional duties and also to whom they are accountable to - for decades - if not right from the beginning of our Republic form of government.
 
I claimed that it is possible. In fact, my very first word in my first reply to you, which ended with a period said, "Possibly"..

Great - so as far as we know it never happened.

But again, you're still not addressing your own OP. You asked, "Does anyone have verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights was ever ratified by enough states to become an official part of the US Constitution?"

My reply to YOUR question is that the Preambles, in and of themselves, didn't need to be ratified.

again - great - its not part of the Constitution.

The same applies to the Preamble of the Bill of Rights. It too describes, in a different manner, the same as stated above.

Except that one IS PART of the Constitution while one IS NOT part of the Constitution.

So basically, I'm claiming that your question in your OP is immaterial and/or inconsequential.

Your opinion is irrelevant to me and the purpose of the OP.

Bottom line: They help We the People understand why our elected officials should be accountable...and to whom. How we (as individuals) react to the information contained in these Preambles...is obviously each individual's choice.

There is no doubt to whom our elected officials are accountable. And the Preamble to the BOR changes nothing about the Amendments or their contents or the rights contained in each of them.
 
Great - so as far as we know it never happened.



again - great - its not part of the Constitution.



Except that one IS PART of the Constitution while one IS NOT part of the Constitution.



Your opinion is irrelevant to me and the purpose of the OP.



There is no doubt to whom our elected officials are accountable. And the Preamble to the BOR changes nothing about the Amendments or their contents or the rights contained in each of them.

Great...so far, it did happen.

And the Preambles are a part of the Constitution...but neither convey rights to the government or the people BUT SERVES A CONSTITUTIONAL PURPOSE.

Your OP question is irrelevant because of my comments above..,

The Preambles aren't included to change Amendments, their purpose has already been clearly explained.

There is every reason to doubt who elected officials are accountable to. Government has designed its own accountability and to whom. It's certain not to "we the people".
 
Great...so far, it did happen.

And the Preambles are a part of the Constitution...but neither convey rights to the government or the people BUT SERVES A CONSTITUTIONAL PURPOSE.

Your OP question is irrelevant because of my comments above..,

The Preambles aren't included to change Amendments, their purpose has already been clearly explained.

There is every reason to doubt who elected officials are accountable to. Government has designed its own accountability and to whom. It's certain not to "we the people".

You really need to make up your mind... removable though it may be.
 
You really need to make up your mind... removable though it may be.

There's nothing to make my mind up over anything that I've posted. There's no reason for either Preambles to have been ratified in the first place. It's really that simple. And being removable isn't the same as being removed. ;)
 
There's nothing to make my mind up over anything that I've posted. There's no reason for either Preambles to have been ratified in the first place. It's really that simple. And being removable isn't the same as being removed. ;)

One was.One was not. Get over it.
 
So basically your thread is a way for you to get attention.

Its a way of correcting a false allegation from others who have contended that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution.

But tell me - why would you care?

btw- that is a rhetorical question. I am fully aware that you see me as an ideological enemy and you have this uncontrollable compulsion to post attacks quips whenever you get the chance. This latest example simply illustrates that obvious reality.
 
I hear ya what your saying. I guess the point of that comment was in more of a historical perspective. When we examine the Bill of Rights that were created after the first ten, a good example of surrender of power came with say the 13th Amendment, which basically abolished slavery. And we know that a fair number of Framers were slave owners. Their personal wealth hinged on their ability to use free labor. The passing of that Amendment was not a happy day for many who voted that day. But that was a surrender of power, "in my opinion".

Maybe, from a technical standpoint, political parties within government, who run government, are the ones to "surrender powers". I'm also thinking, and could be wrong, but the Civil Rights Act might qualify. LBJ knew the moment it passed that the Democrats would be surrendering a significant voting base in the Southern states. To me, that's a surrender of power.

So it might well be a matter of semantics on my part. And I do understand your point. Government or members of parties within government have cleverly been legally removing themselves from being accountable in their Constitutional duties and also to whom they are accountable to - for decades - if not right from the beginning of our Republic form of government.

Yes, I understand your point, and would agree that it is more semantics than substance.

As for the slavery issue, recall that when the political document USC was written, the formal end of slavery was discussed by Section 9 of Article I, mentioning 1808 as a day of reckoning on that matter. So it seems that even though they did practice slavery, they acknowledged that its days were numbered.
 
One was.One was not. Get over it.

One was and the other didn't need to be. It would be like asking, "Can anybody prove that the Index to the Bill of Rights" was ratified.

Neither Preambles needed ratifying. Why? They were no more than a declaration of purpose, a mission statement, if you prefer, but they did not convey any rights.

Hay, I was over it from my first post... :shrug: I just stated the "obvious".
 
One was and the other didn't need to be. It would be like asking, "Can anybody prove that the Index to the Bill of Rights" was ratified.

Neither Preambles needed ratifying. Why? They were no more than a declaration of purpose, a mission statement, if you prefer, but they did not convey any rights.

Hay, I was over it from my first post... :shrug: I just stated the "obvious".

NO it is not LIKE anything. It is what it is. And what it is is irrelevant as it has no place in the Constitution nor does it change any of the Amendments or rights contained in them.
 
NO it is not LIKE anything. It is what it is. And what it is is irrelevant as it has no place in the Constitution nor does it change any of the Amendments or rights contained in them.

That's your opinion, historians say otherwise.
 
I did not realize that these nameless historians had the power to change the Constitution.

You don't realize that the federal government is one thing and We The People are another thing. What's new? :lol:
 
I did not realize that these nameless historians had the power to change the Constitution.

Historians aren't suppose to change the Constitution, the last I heard. They're like reporters of history, well, at least that's how I perceive them to be.
 
Unless of course historians discovered something that had not been recognized as properly ratified but which actually was, ultimately still not up to the historians. As to the question at hand, looks like at leaat some states carry the preamble through, not sure if enough of them do though and I don't think it matters either way.
 
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