Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitution.

Crusdr57 · Oct 21, 2016

If I'm not mistaken the Full Faith And Credit Clause requires States to honor and accept out-of-state Legal Documents, (among other things).

My question is, considering the above Clause, how is it possible for a State, (Colorado) to require that a person's Birth Certificate be 'State Certified'? (IOW, specifically Certified by CO.)

My Birth Cert. was Certified, and issued by the State of NY in 1957, and I possess the ORIGINAL which does have the embossed seal.

BACKGROUND INFO: I'm at the DMV, (a County Office) and I get to the Driver's License Dept. desk, and they tell me the system's down, they can't issue Drivers Licenses now, it may be up in ten min, or down ALL day......She then looks over my paperwork, and tells me I need to have my ORIGINAL Birth Cert. (RE)certified by the State of CO, or County, (first I've heard of this, and I told her so) and I told her my Birth Certificate IS VALID, ETC. and our little meeting went downhill from there..........

Top it all off, I called the County Recorder, ('Lisa'-a supervisor) to find out HOW to Cert. the BC, and they tell me my Birth cert. is INVALID, and that I should contact NY, (to obtain a COPY of SAME) and, they can't attest a Birth Cert. that was issued in another State. She asked when I was born, (I said, '1957')...her, "it's too old.....we don't use that format anymore"!!!!!!!!!!! (IMO, MY BC was valid then, and still IS VALID, there's NO expiration date etc). Cost of contacting NY, to obtain a COPY of the ORIGINAL I possess, $75, cost of Colorado State (RE)Cert. of this COPY. $17.75.

(This AM I emailed The State's Official site w/ questions, etc....no reply as yet...)

Plz advise, etc. :2wave:

azgreg · Oct 21, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Yeah!!!! Bureaucracy!!!!

Master PO · Oct 21, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Originally this had to do with judgments against people, meaning if a state court placed say a fine on you, you could not runaway to another state to avoid that judgement.

Brewdog · Oct 21, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Holy crap at the price to get a BC! The state should charge a FEE for services, but that's not a fee, it's a blatant tax. I get the same gripe when I renew my passport ($135) or my TWIC ($129).

But the DMV is going to go down that old road that "Driving is a privilege" so if you want a license then you have to do whatever they say. Kneel down and lick your master's boots.

Jerks.

Crovax · Oct 21, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
If I'm not mistaken the Full Faith And Credit Clause requires States to honor and accept out-of-state Legal Documents, (among other things).

My question is, considering the above Clause, how is it possible for a State, (Colorado) to require that a person's Birth Certificate be 'State Certified'? (IOW, specifically Certified by CO.)

My Birth Cert. was Certified, and issued by the State of NY in 1957, and I possess the ORIGINAL which does have the embossed seal.

BACKGROUND INFO: I'm at the DMV, (a County Office) and I get to the Driver's License Dept. desk, and they tell me the system's down, they can't issue Drivers Licenses now, it may be up in ten min, or down ALL day......She then looks over my paperwork, and tells me I need to have my ORIGINAL Birth Cert. (RE)certified by the State of CO, or County, (first I've heard of this, and I told her so) and I told her my Birth Certificate IS VALID, ETC. and our little meeting went downhill from there..........

Top it all off, I called the County Recorder, ('Lisa'-a supervisor) to find out HOW to Cert. the BC, and they tell me my Birth cert. is INVALID, and that I should contact NY, (to obtain a COPY of SAME) and, they can't attest a Birth Cert. that was issued in another State. She asked when I was born, (I said, '1957')...her, "it's too old.....we don't use that format anymore"!!!!!!!!!!! (IMO, MY BC was valid then, and still IS VALID, there's NO expiration date etc). Cost of contacting NY, to obtain a COPY of the ORIGINAL I possess, $75, cost of Colorado State (RE)Cert. of this COPY. $17.75.

(This AM I emailed The State's Official site w/ questions, etc....no reply as yet...)

Plz advise, etc. :2wave:

Full faith and credit clause wouldn't cover something like a birth certificate and apparently CO is a horrible place to be.

Brewdog · Oct 21, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Here's another ludicrous issue with government...

When I moved to Alabama from Georgia, I had to get a new tag for my car. My original title for my car was held by my bank in CA which had in turn sent me a notarized photocopy of the title which I kept in my glovebox.

So I wait in line for over an hour and get to the desk. I have money in my hand and all my documents that I responsibly looked up online to make sure I had everything they wanted. She wouldn't accept my title because it was a photocopy and she said the VIN would not be legible in their system after they made their photocopy. You could clearly see the damn VIN, but it was blurry, and she said if we photocopy it again it will be too blurry to read. They still weren't scanning things digitally, they were making hard photocopies FFS.

So, I said, "Ma'am, you can clearly see the number; just write it on the copy and sign it. I'm standing here with ALL the proper documentation, money in my hand to give you, and you won't let me PAY A TAX THAT I DON'T EVEN WANT TO PAY YOU, and you won't even take my money because of YOUR antiquated filing system? That's not MY fault!"

So, I discovered that day why there are always armed deputies in the tag office. Because people get so G.D. angry at their whoresh1t that they need police security. How asinine is it that I can't even pay a tax to Caesar without licking their damn boots?

Crusdr57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Brewdog said:
Holy crap at the price to get a BC! The state should charge a FEE for services, but that's not a fee, it's a blatant tax. I get the same gripe when I renew my passport ($135) or my TWIC ($129).

But the DMV is going to go down that old road that "Driving is a privilege" so if you want a license then you have to do whatever they say. Kneel down and lick your master's boots.

Jerks.

I agree on the price.....and this is to obtain a COPY, when I have the Original in my possession.

Not willing to kneel, etc...good thing my NV DL is good for another yr. (CO. requires that you get a CO DL within 30 days of moving there....see below for the rest of the story.)

Crusdr57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crovax said:
Full faith and credit clause wouldn't cover something like a birth certificate and apparently CO is a horrible place to be.

IMO, it does cover the Birth Cert. as it is a legal document, yes???

jet57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
If I'm not mistaken the Full Faith And Credit Clause requires States to honor and accept out-of-state Legal Documents, (among other things).

My question is, considering the above Clause, how is it possible for a State, (Colorado) to require that a person's Birth Certificate be 'State Certified'? (IOW, specifically Certified by CO.)

My Birth Cert. was Certified, and issued by the State of NY in 1957, and I possess the ORIGINAL which does have the embossed seal.

BACKGROUND INFO: I'm at the DMV, (a County Office) and I get to the Driver's License Dept. desk, and they tell me the system's down, they can't issue Drivers Licenses now, it may be up in ten min, or down ALL day......She then looks over my paperwork, and tells me I need to have my ORIGINAL Birth Cert. (RE)certified by the State of CO, or County, (first I've heard of this, and I told her so) and I told her my Birth Certificate IS VALID, ETC. and our little meeting went downhill from there..........

Top it all off, I called the County Recorder, ('Lisa'-a supervisor) to find out HOW to Cert. the BC, and they tell me my Birth cert. is INVALID, and that I should contact NY, (to obtain a COPY of SAME) and, they can't attest a Birth Cert. that was issued in another State. She asked when I was born, (I said, '1957')...her, "it's too old.....we don't use that format anymore"!!!!!!!!!!! (IMO, MY BC was valid then, and still IS VALID, there's NO expiration date etc). Cost of contacting NY, to obtain a COPY of the ORIGINAL I possess, $75, cost of Colorado State (RE)Cert. of this COPY. $17.75.

(This AM I emailed The State's Official site w/ questions, etc....no reply as yet...)

Plz advise, etc. :2wave:

All you have to do is call another person at NY and ask for a copy of your BC. Don't say anything about the original and provide the proof that they say they need.

easy peasy

Crusdr57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Brewdog said:
Here's another ludicrous issue with government...

When I moved to Alabama from Georgia, I had to get a new tag for my car. My original title for my car was held by my bank in CA which had in turn sent me a notarized photocopy of the title which I kept in my glovebox.

So I wait in line for over an hour and get to the desk. I have money in my hand and all my documents that I responsibly looked up online to make sure I had everything they wanted. She wouldn't accept my title because it was a photocopy and she said the VIN would not be legible in their system after they made their photocopy. You could clearly see the damn VIN, but it was blurry, and she said if we photocopy it again it will be too blurry to read. They still weren't scanning things digitally, they were making hard photocopies FFS.

So, I said, "Ma'am, you can clearly see the number; just write it on the copy and sign it. I'm standing here with ALL the proper documentation, money in my hand to give you, and you won't let me PAY A TAX THAT I DON'T EVEN WANT TO PAY YOU, and you won't even take my money because of YOUR antiquated filing system? That's not MY fault!"

So, I discovered that day why there are always armed deputies in the tag office. Because people get so G.D. angry at their whoresh1t that they need police security. How asinine is it that I can't even pay a tax to Caesar without licking their damn boots?

Thanks for the story, I'm amazed they actually would accept a photocopy!!! (Don't blame you for getting angry, I did, see below.)

It seems the DMV tries their very best to turn you away empty-handed, instead of helping you achieve your goals.

The REST of the story: It took me 4 months, (that's FOUR) to get together my Proof Of Residency Docs, just for the 'privilege' of going to the DMV, (I had neglected to check the website, and didn't know of this requirement until my first visit @ the DMV, on June 3rd) due to the USPS deciding, (for NO apparent reason) that they would discontinue my mail delivery here.... So, on Oct. 4th I sent ANOTHER COA Request to 80919 PM, (sent them the first one on June first) AND Mom talked to the Mailman, and she wrote my name on list that's on inside Mail Box door, (crude-but-effective).

Finally, the woman at the DMV said my S.S. Card needed to be verified because it's laminated. (At least two of the Proof Of Residency Documents I had JUST provided to her ALSO have my S.S. # printed on them!!!). I told her the card IS perfectly good, and I stood up, and I TOLD her this IS BULL****, give me back my paperwork, AND I'm going to another DMV where the ppl know wth they're doing, (yes, ALL could hear).

Crusdr57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

jet57 said:
All you have to do is call another person at NY and ask for a copy of your BC. Don't say anything about the original and provide the proof that they say they need.

easy peasy

The Hall of Records, (Albany) will still charge them the $75.....not so easy.

Crusdr57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
Thanks for the story, I'm amazed they actually would accept a photocopy!!! (Don't blame you for getting angry, I did, see below.)

It seems the DMV tries their very best to turn you away empty-handed, instead of helping you achieve your goals.

The REST of the story: It took me 4 months, (that's FOUR) to get together my Proof Of Residency Docs, just for the 'privilege' of going to the DMV, (I had neglected to check the website, and didn't know of this requirement until my first visit @ the DMV, on June 3rd) due to the USPS deciding, (for NO apparent reason) that they would discontinue my mail delivery here.... So, on Oct. 4th I sent ANOTHER COA Request to 80919 PM, (sent them the first one on June first) AND Mom talked to the Mailman, and she wrote my name on list that's on inside Mail Box door, (crude-but-effective).

Finally, the woman at the DMV said my S.S. Card needed to be verified because it's laminated. (At least two of the Proof Of Residency Documents I had JUST provided to her ALSO have my S.S. # printed on them!!!). I told her the card IS perfectly good, and I stood up, and I TOLD her this IS BULL****, give me back my paperwork, AND I'm going to another DMV where the ppl know wth they're doing, (yes, ALL could hear).

Over time limit, so quoted, etc.

EDIT TO ADD: I did live here-same town-from 1975-86, and the DMV did ask me about this. The topper: my DL # IS THE SAME now as it was THEN....so, my Legal Docs have been declared INVALID by an incompetent woman, representing a County-run Office DMV. (I've had this same SS # since 1969.)

(The State of CO website states '30 days to obtain DL', and the County's site states, '60 days', the madness continues...and I'm asking myself, "Why do I continue seeking resolution?')

jet57 · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
The Hall of Records, (Albany) will still charge them the $75.....not so easy.

Jeez; in Calif, it's $10 bucks.

Well, you need the copy though. So I'd spring for $75 doseneros...

Brewdog · Oct 22, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
Thanks for the story, I'm amazed they actually would accept a photocopy!!! (Don't blame you for getting angry, I did, see below.)

It seems the DMV tries their very best to turn you away empty-handed, instead of helping you achieve your goals.

Well, it was a notarized copy from my bank with the seal and all. But the numbers were blurry and still readable. Sheesh.

I haven't had as much problem with the state DMV's in the past. They seem to just want to get you out of there and call the next number in line. But the damn county people, holy crap. I actually heard the tag woman at the counter telling someone, "I have no way of knowing your car isn't stolen without your prior state registration from your former state of residence."

I was like, "Sure, the guy stole a car off the street and then decided to go to the county tag office, show his ID which doesn't match the car owner in their system, worry that the car has in fact been reported stolen while deputies are there, and then pay a tax to renew the tag on a STOLEN CAR." Haha, dumbasses.

Crusdr57 · Oct 23, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

jet57 said:
Jeez; in Calif, it's $10 bucks.

Well, you need the copy though. So I'd spring for $75 doseneros...

This is my point; I don't need a COPY because I possess the original, and it IS Certified by the State of NY, and stands on its own as a Legal and valid Document which requires NO REcertification.

From Wikipedia: "....In 1790, shortly after the Constitution had been ratified, Congress took action under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, enacting that "the records and judicial proceedings, authenticated as aforesaid, shall have such faith and credit given to them in every Court within the United States, as they have by law or usage in the Courts of the state from whence the said records are or shall be taken."[10] In 1813, the Supreme Court interpreted this federal statute, in the leading case of Mills v. Duryee.[11] Justice Joseph Story wrote for the Court that it was the federal statute (rather than the constitutional provision) that made records from one state effective in another state:

It is argued, that this act provides only for the admission of such records as evidence, but does not declare the effect of such evidence, when admitted. This argument cannot be supported. The act declares, that the record, duly authenticated, shall have such faith and credit as it has in the state court from whence it is taken. If in such court it has the faith and credit of evidence of the highest nature, viz., record evidence, it must have the same faith and credit in every other court....."

jet57 · Oct 23, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
This is my point; I don't need a COPY because I possess the original, and it IS Certified by the State of NY, and stands on its own as a Legal and valid Document which requires NO REcertification.

From Wikipedia: "....In 1790, shortly after the Constitution had been ratified, Congress took action under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, enacting that "the records and judicial proceedings, authenticated as aforesaid, shall have such faith and credit given to them in every Court within the United States, as they have by law or usage in the Courts of the state from whence the said records are or shall be taken."[10] In 1813, the Supreme Court interpreted this federal statute, in the leading case of Mills v. Duryee.[11] Justice Joseph Story wrote for the Court that it was the federal statute (rather than the constitutional provision) that made records from one state effective in another state:

It is argued, that this act provides only for the admission of such records as evidence, but does not declare the effect of such evidence, when admitted. This argument cannot be supported. The act declares, that the record, duly authenticated, shall have such faith and credit as it has in the state court from whence it is taken. If in such court it has the faith and credit of evidence of the highest nature, viz., record evidence, it must have the same faith and credit in every other court....."

I understand your point. It didn't work however; who cares why, that's the way bureaucracy works because it's stupid. I would think that they should have accepted the original as well, but being that your original does not have a modern state seal on it, some might think it's a forgery: stupid, I know.

Crusdr57 · Oct 23, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

jet57 said:
I understand your point. It didn't work however; who cares why, that's the way bureaucracy works because it's stupid. I would think that they should have accepted the original as well, but being that your original does not have a modern state seal on it, some might think it's a forgery: stupid, I know.

Bureaucracy doesn't work too well sometimes.

I care.

Why is a 'modern seal' so much better than one made in 1957???

jet57 · Oct 24, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
Bureaucracy doesn't work too well sometimes.

I care.

Why is a 'modern seal' so much better than one made in 1957???

I don't have any idea. But if that's what they want, give it to 'em.

Crusdr57 · Oct 24, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

jet57 said:
I don't have any idea. But if that's what they want, give it to 'em.

No problem jet....

..should've said, 'so much more valid and legal.'

UPDATE: I called the STATE DMV today, and, (like their website) they said they DO NOT require a Birth Cert...IF you have a current out-of-State DL. I asked her several times, "Then WHY is the County DMV requiring me to show them a Birth Cert....??? (The County woman IS unqualified, [her mistakes are in writing on my file] but, of course the State woman tried her best to cover, etc...round and round.

The County woman said, "The SS # needs to be verified because it's laminated." I called BS as the Card ITSELF IS unchanged, apparently, the State won't accept my SS Card either. Also, it's the DMV's JOB to verify this-not mine. (My IRS COA Confirmation letter does have my SS # printed on it, but this just isn't good enough for them.)

Obviously, the IRS, and the SS Admin DO know my SS #....I finished the call by telling her I can't make my Docs any more Legal than they are now, and I'm not going to try................

Crusdr57 · Dec 10, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Update: I went to the Social Security Admin on Nov. 10, and they accepted my BC as Legal and valid, and sent me a NEW SS Card on Nov. 19, (blazing fast for a FED Agency, yes?).

Went back to DMV, (State Office) and they continued their laser-focus on the embossed seal of my BC, to the exclusion of ALL else.....the DMV Reps FORGOT ALL about my new SS Card which I had presented to them @ the very beginning of this visit. I was given the usual denied-ignored-dismissed treatment from them. (Yes, the very Document the DMV had told me to get due to my old card being laminated during my visit on Oct. 19.)

I have PROOF that my BC is NOT Local, BUT I've yet to be given a FAIR opportunity to present this proof. I contacted the Dept. Of Revenue, (they oversee the DMV here) and I received the SAME treatment, and so I contacted the CO State Attorney General's Office a week ago, and awaiting their reply..............

FYI: The DMV requires an "Enhanced" DL in order for the DL to 'cover 4 documents'.

Crusdr57 · Dec 16, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Well, the AG's Office finally returned my email......referring me backwards to the Dept. Of Revenue, who had ALREADY referred me backwards to DMV's 'Exceptions Processing'.

And stating that the AG doesn't have any Jurisdiction in this matter....so, I sent a re asking, 'Are you saying it's NOT in your Jurisdiction to enforce Colorado and FED Laws???

Their apathy is exceeded only by their unwillingness to accept THEIR responsibilities.....I've sent a letter to the Gov's Office, but need to go to the FED Level.

6 /2 months, and still don't have my CODL...NOW, I'm challenging the DMV's incorrect assessment of my Legal Documents......but difficult when being ignored.

:2wave:

Crusdr57 · Dec 16, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

jet57 said:
I don't have any idea. But if that's what they want, give it to 'em.

I gave them what THEY required, BUT it's just not good enough for CO DMV.

jet57 · Dec 16, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
I gave them what THEY required, BUT it's just not good enough for CO DMV.

Show'em the home movie of your birth.

Crusdr57 · Dec 16, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

jet57 said:
Show'em the home movie of your birth.

LMAO....MOM had offered to go w/ me to TELL them, "I was there, so I should know."

But you can't get a CODL without a Lawyer....not so funny.

jet57 · Dec 16, 2016

Re: Questions Concerning Article 4 "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the US Constitut

Crusdr57 said:
LMAO....MOM had offered to go w/ me to TELL them, "I was there, so I should know."

But you can't get a CODL without a Lawyer....not so funny.

But please remember: You can dance without a lawyer

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