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Your duty as a Citizen to understand the Constitution

I think it was. Justice Gray had it right the first time, and Elk v. Wilkins certainly does NOT support birth citizenship.
Yes, it did... just not for Native American Indians.

The reasoning in Elk is not based on a rejection of jus soli for ALL foreigners; the children of ambassadors, foreign ministers, and Indians were specified exceptions. This is reinforced by Section 2 of the 14th Amendment explicitly referring to "Indians not taxed," the 1866 CR law, treaties, and so forth.

We should also note that Wong Kim Ark did not, in fact, overturn Elk. Indians were not granted citizen via birthright until it was granted via the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. Why would that law be necessary, if Wong had in fact overturned Elk?

Or perhaps you did not happen to read the section in Wong where Gray explains that the rulings are consistent:

The decision in Elk v. Wilkins concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.

The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country. Calvin's Case, 7 Rep. 1, 18b; Cockburn on Nationality, 7; Dicey Conflict of Laws, 177; Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 155; 2 Kent Com. 39, 42.
(emphasis added)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649

This was also evident to the Senators who discussed ratification; they undoubtedly understood that the children of non-citizen residents would become US citizens. I reviewed some of that discussion in this post:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-co...nderstand-constitution-10.html#post1066294443

Merely crying "NO!!!" does not magically make the sections I quoted go away, or change the actual content of the ruling, or change how Gray treated both rulings as consistent -- unless you know of some passage in Wong where he refutes the logic of Elk?


In England, birth citizenship had served the purpose of ensuring that kings would have enough loyal subjects to fight their wars. The evidence that it was a feature of English law most Americans meant to import here is weak.
lol... Yes, except that it was a feature of US law until Dred Scott. From a Congressional Research Service article, which reviewed whether children born in the US to unauthorized immigrants:

For example, in an 1824 inheritance case, the Supreme Court proceeded on the assumption that
three girls born in the United States were citizens, although their father was an Irish citizen who
never naturalized. In 1830, the Supreme Court held that the law of England as to citizenship at
birth was the law of the English colonies, and that a person born in New York after the
Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776 was a citizen of the United States, unless he was
born in British-occupied territory, left for England as a minor, and did not elect to affirm his U.S.
citizenship within a reasonable time after attaining his majority.
In another early case more
directly on point, Lynch v. Clarke, a New York court held in 1844 that Julia Lynch, born to Irish
aliens while they were temporarily sojourning in New York, was a U.S. citizen. In determining
the appropriate national law to apply, the Lynch court looked to the traditional English common
law doctrine of jus soli, holding that by the “law of the United States, every person born within
the dominions and allegiance of the United States, whatever were the situation of his parents, is a
natural born citizen.”

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44251.pdf

{continued}
 
You called it a contract in post 211. Would you like to walk that back, or just offer petty edits as to what you 'ACTUALLY' meant?

If not between the people and the government they just formed, then who?

No. I did not. Not even close. I also clearly explained how and why the Constitution was not a contract later as well. Read and learn ... thnx.
 
I don't understand any such thing, and neither do the constitutional experts who have written about this subject. Your condescending tone can't hide the fact you are pretending-- once again--to understand much more about constitutional law than you do.
Sorry not sorry, what I'm saying is merely the mainstream view.


As I already noted, Congress in the RFRA in effect told the Supreme Court how it should interpret the Free Exercise Clause....
While I do not deny the general concept -- e.g. Congress can rewrite laws to avoid some SCOTUS objections -- your characterization of that instance is wrong.

Congress didn't tell the SCOTUS how to interpret anything. The RFRA got shot down for the states in City of Boerne v. Flores. However, the SCOTUS found that it could apply on the federal level. This has resulted in some states passing their own RFRA laws, which of course could in theory get dragged into court if they fall afoul of other Constitutional provisions.

I.e. Gonzales v. O Centro is not seen as overturning City of Boerne v. Flores.

Anyway. Yes, there are instances where the SCOTUS will overturn rulings, even somewhat recent ones. What I'm saying is that it is very rare, and obviously depends on the composition of the Supreme Court. In contrast, passing an amendment that explicitly denies citizenship to the children of resident non-citizens would be an unambiguous statement that the SCOTUS or legislators could not somehow overturn or flout.

It is easy to say "See, look at this case!" But the reality is that no one knew how the SCOTUS is going to rule. And the odds are usually pretty low.


Congress can effectively nullify a Supreme Court decision, then, by making a law that expresses its wish for the Court to abandon that decision, and instead adopt the view it had taken in certain earlier ones. If it can do that with the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, it can also do it with the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth. The notion that it takes a constitutional amendment to overturn a Supreme Court decision is just plain silly.
lol

No, dude, just... no.

Congress or a state legislature can try to directly take on a SCOTUS decision. It is reasonable to presume that, as long as standing is well-established, it will work its way up the courts.

However, as you should well know, it has to make it through the courts to begin with; then it has to be accepted by the SCOTUS; then the legislators have to hope, sometimes irrationally, that the SCOTUS will overturn its own rulings. I am well aware of this possibility -- as well as how it is a long shot, especially as a lower court may deny it, and the SCOTUS won't even hear it.

This is why we don't see two dozen states passing new laws which outlaw same-sex marriage, mandate prayer in schools, block the ACA, restrict election spending, or all sorts of other policies shot down by the SCOTUS.


Your hauteur is showing again. To want federal immigration laws enforced now makes an American a nativist?
Nope. The attempt to twist the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in order to deny citizenship to the children of non-citizen immigrants is what I view as nativist.


That does not even pass the laugh test. Illegal aliens have done enormous economic and cultural harm to this country.
:roll:


I grew up in California and still live here, and I have seen this damage firsthand.
Does that include the "harm" they did while picking all the produce you eat from the farms, the hotel rooms they've cleaned up after you, the lawns they've gardened for you or your neighbors?


It costs this state many billions each year just to educate the children of the millions of illegal aliens in this once-great state.
Please.

First, if the kids were born in the US, they're citizens. Deal with it.

Second, AFAIK around 3% of CA K-12 students are actual unauthorized immigrants.


The load they place on public services and utilities of all types--schools, hospitals, sewers, roads, fire and police protection, water supplies, libraries, parks, courts, etc.--vastly outweighs any contributions they make through the tax on the beer, cigarettes, gas, etc. they buy.
lol

Y'know, Heritage does these xenophobic reports every few years on the costs of unauthorized immigration. About 2/3 of the costs are education. Most of the rest is the cost of police and fire. The effects on sewers, roads, water, libraries, parks, courts? That doesn't even rank.

Anyway: Having lived in California, as well as other areas with high levels of immigration (legal and unauthorized), I do not see much evidence that it's done a lot of harm. I also definitely do not see much, if any, evidence that recognizing jus soli has done any harm either.
 
geez! dude you have no clue.

I would pay to watch you attempt to babble at a circuit panel about your unique "interpretation" of the constitution. Well, provided they gave you more than the usual limited time. It honestly never ceases to amaze me that people will pose as some kind of constitutional scholar, but all they do is copy/paste a little text and spew a personal opinion as if it was fact.

I now recall that the last time I viewed this thread, I became depressed.
 
I am well aware of a multitude of examples of the Supreme Court being negligent or even harmful to the rule of law they are supposed to protect.


Where can I buy a diving rod for law?
 
No. I did not. Not even close. I also clearly explained how and why the Constitution was not a contract later as well. Read and learn ... thnx.

No, of course you didn't. And Bill Clinton did not have sex with that young woman. :lamo
 
I guess I'm still not seeing the compelling interest in making the children of foreign citizens in the US illegally and not naturalized into naturalized citizens just because they were born here. You have a chicken and egg argument, the child only becomes subject to US law if he is made a citizen and he is only made a citizen if he is subject to US law.

It leaves you to interpret one of two ways. The way you are Visbek, or in a way that could intercede that the children of illegal immigrants should not be granted citizenship because their parents are outside of legal US jurisdiction. If they were on the path to naturalization it would be a signal of their allowing jurisdiction but I don't know how you square the problem without some signal the parents consider themselves under US jurisdiction when not here legally and obeying US law.

I'm not sure I lean either way but presenting the other side of the argument for examination's sake.
 
I would pay to watch you attempt to babble at a circuit panel about your unique "interpretation" of the constitution. Well, provided they gave you more than the usual limited time. It honestly never ceases to amaze me that people will pose as some kind of constitutional scholar, but all they do is copy/paste a little text and spew a personal opinion as if it was fact.

I now recall that the last time I viewed this thread, I became depressed.

any time you wish to challenge me on the constitution, ...feel free.
 
No, of course you didn't. And Bill Clinton did not have sex with that young woman. :lamo

No. I didnt. I said the Constitution outlines the governments powers then it is done. The contract is the social contract and that exists between the people and the government... any people and any government that choose to engage in it. The Constitution is not the contract. The contract is implicit in people obeying the govrrnment and the goverment protecting the peoples rights. At that point the US Constitution is irrelevant to the Social Contract. I understand you dont understand context nor enlightenment principles though...
 
Nope. The Social Contract exists between a government and the people... not just the US government and its citizens.

The Constitution is nothing more than an unfolding of the powers that government has and the B.O.R. explains what the government can not do...

Absolutely wrong. This issue is plainly addressed and explained in the 9th and 10th Amendments. The government has "only" the powers outlined in the Constitution and no more. You interpretation incorrectly assumes the government can do anything the BOR does not prohibit. That is wrong. The government can do nothing legally that it was not given power to do in the Constitution. The Constitution is the contract by which the government was created and dictates its limits.
 
No. I didnt. I said the Constitution outlines the governments powers then it is done. The contract is the social contract and that exists between the people and the government... any people and any government that choose to engage in it. The Constitution is not the contract. The contract is implicit in people obeying the govrrnment and the goverment protecting the peoples rights. At that point the US Constitution is irrelevant to the Social Contract. I understand you dont understand context nor enlightenment principles though...

There is no "implied contract" between the government and the people. The Constitution is the contract period. If it is not in writing it is not a contract.
 
Absolutely wrong. The government has "only" the powers outlined in the Constitution and no more. The government can do nothing legally that it was not given power to do in the Constitution. .

I said: The Constitution is nothing more than an unfolding of the powers that government has :lol:

You interpretation incorrectly assumes the government can do anything the BOR does not prohibit. That is wrong.

Uhh... no. I never uttered anything that would even remotely resemble that.

The Constitution is the contract by which the government was created and dictates its limits

The argument was the Constitution is a contract between the people and the government... answer is: It is not.
 
There is no "implied contract" between the government and the people. The Constitution is the contract period. If it is not in writing it is not a contract.

Social Contract. Locke. Rousseau. Jefferson. Voltaire. Hobbes. Look 'em up. Learn something...
 
No. I didnt. I said the Constitution outlines the governments powers then it is done. The contract is the social contract and that exists between the people and the government... any people and any government that choose to engage in it. The Constitution is not the contract. The contract is implicit in people obeying the govrrnment and the goverment protecting the peoples rights. At that point the US Constitution is irrelevant to the Social Contract. I understand you dont understand context nor enlightenment principles though...

The constitution SPECIFIES and grants the government powers. It enumerates those powers, mostly in Article I Section 8.

The rest of you mumbo-jumbo nonsense about contracts would be laughed out of any serious discussion about it.
 
The constitution SPECIFIES and grants the government powers. It enumerates those powers, mostly in Article I Section 8.

The rest of you mumbo-jumbo nonsense about contracts would be laughed out of any serious discussion about it.

So you don't understand Constitutional principles nor the major ideas of the Enlightenment... got it.

You go have some "serious discussions" with some important people though...
 
No. I didnt. I said the Constitution outlines the governments powers then it is done. The contract is the social contract and that exists between the people and the government... any people and any government that choose to engage in it. The Constitution is not the contract. The contract is implicit in people obeying the govrrnment and the goverment protecting the peoples rights. At that point the US Constitution is irrelevant to the Social Contract. I understand you dont understand context nor enlightenment principles though...

what does this mean?
 
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