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The rights of man and the duty of citizens

Captain Adverse said:
No one grants me the right to self-defense. I exercise that right of my own free will and to the best of my personal ability.

No one grants me the right of self-expression. I also exercise that right of my own free will and to the best of my ability.

I can be killed, and I can die naturally. Thus the right to life is not absolute.

I can be incarcerated, and I can be forcibly muzzled, but those types of actions only inhibit my freedoms to a certain extent. They do not abolish my free will.

It's like the right to rebel mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. In each case above you have the right to act, but it does not mean that you have a right to succeed.
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You defend yourself because it's a genetic instinct of personal protection. Not because you have any "right" to do so. Human beings have been protecting themselves for some 275,000 years or so. Animals have been doing it too. It wasn't a right until we recently said it was.
 
American said:
The Welfare State started before McGovern, but the pacifist character began with McGovern and continued on. Lots of it promoted for politics and power.
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I will agree on the pacifist character of the Democrats since Mcgovern. The "welfare state" thing, I'm not so sure is an accurate description.
 
American said:
I think it's you who needs to reread it. I'm sure it's quite alien to you.
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Eehh, your motive for posting it wasn't objective. Yesterday's Democratic, AND Republican governments didn't have to listen to the radical evangelicals trying to usurp the process and manipulate what politicians said. Jerry Fallwell, Ralph Reed and the rest of the Hoo Haa radical right have ruined God in this country and made religion and God unsafe topics in this country.
 
jet57 said:
You defend yourself because it's a genetic instinct of personal protection. Not because you have any "right" to do so. Human beings have been protecting themselves for some 275,000 years or so. Animals have been doing it too. It wasn't a right until we recently said it was.
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Soooo...do you believe that government can prohibit one from defending oneself? Since the right is not natural, but merely 'instinctive," it can be legislated away?

Meanwhile, if it is merely an instinct and not a right subject to free will...how then explain all the examples in history of self-sacrifice for the greater good or loved ones? Mere instinct would argue one always automatically fights for personal survival. But that is not the case.
 
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American said:
You could start by showing how current Democrat candidates are still in agreement with Kennedy and others of his era. If you can't/won't, then current Democrats are out of phase, as I said.
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Well, number one, it's "Democratic" candidates. "Democrat" is now used by the right as a pejorative to avoid the word "democratic", that started with GW. MANY Democrats are still very much in agreement with Kennedy's policies and his thinking: civil rights, good jobs, Union sanctity against oppressive employers, helping the poor, free and equal education, not getting into wars we needn't be involved in, domestic policies that don't favor the heavy hand of Wall Street or corporate America. The list goes on and on. If you can spot something else besides "god" as a public political statement, out it out there.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Soooo...do you believe that government can prohibit one from defending oneself? Since the right is not natural, but merely 'instinctive," it can be legislated away?

Meanwhile, if it is merely an instinct and not a right subject to free will...how then explain all the examples in history of self-sacrifice for the greater good or lived ones? Mere instinct would argue one always automatically fights for personal survival. But that is not the case.
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Nice try: I'm talking about the label of a "right".... "right" is a political construct. Self sacrifice is not self defense in the context of war. Mere instinct and fear is what drives us to protect ourselves.
 
jet57 said:
Nice try: I'm talking about the label of a "right".... "right" is a political construct. Self sacrifice is not self defense in the context of war. Mere instinct and fear is what drives us to protect ourselves.
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No, again it is not a "political construct." It is a philosophy of life, and it is NOT dependent on government. It is dependent solely on the individual.

If you choose to think that your rights are completely dependent on agreements with others, then you remain dependent...period.

Those of us who recognize that our lives and our freedoms are our own responsibility to protect and maintain? We will continue to recognize the FACT of natural rights.

Just try to obstruct my exercise of those rights I am willing to defend...see how far it gets you. :bringit
 
Captain Adverse said:
LOL That is exactly what a natural right is.

It is unimportant that you choose to think otherwise.

That is another right we have...to disagree. :lol:

P.S. That is also a right that is not dependent on any government or other group agreement.
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No that is a mere ability. Is the ability to defecate a natural right also?
 
haymarket said:
No that is a mere ability.
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Nice, you almost caught me in a knee-jerk response. Trying to twist terms.

Of course that is one of your usual tactics, and I almost fell for it.

Yes, we have the ability to do many things.

One of those is the ability to make choices, the exercise of free will.

We also have the ability to recognize inherent rights based on our nature as human beings. In that respect we are very different from most creatures we've encountered so far.

Unlike most creatures we can choose to do things contrary to instinctive behavior. We can also recognize our individual existence as having unique value worth preserving, or sacrificing to preserve in others.

Which brings me back to the natural right to self-defense of ourselves and those we value. I will take this action with or without the permission or agreement of others.

It is my innate right by the exercise of my free will and personal capability. It will remain my right to enforce as I choose until the day that I die.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Nice, you almost caught me in a knee-jerk response. Trying to twist terms.

Of course that is one of your usual tactics, and I almost fell for it.

Yes, we have the ability to do many things.

One of those is the ability to make choices, the exercise of free will.

We also have the ability to recognize inherent rights based on our nature as human beings. In that respect we are very different from most creatures we've encountered so far.

Unlike most creatures we can choose to do things contrary to instinctive behavior. We can also recognize our individual existence as having unique value worth preserving, or sacrificing to preserve in others.

Which brings me back to the natural right to self-defense of ourselves and those we value. I will take this action with or without the permission or agreement of others.

It is my innate right by the exercise of my free will and personal capability. It will remain my right to enforce as I choose until the day that I die.
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exactly!

or you could have said natural capacity
 
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Lursa said:
Please read better, I wrote, and 'then' codified by law.
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cod·i·fy
ˈkädəˌfī,ˈkōdəˌfī/Submit
verb
past tense: codified; past participle: codified
arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code.
synonyms: systematize, systemize, organize, arrange, order, structure; More
arrange according to a plan or system.
"Verdi helped codify an international operatic culture"

rights are unwritten law, and it consist of Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

you cannot codify into code, what is unwritten
 
Thrilla said:
true...

interesting...I wonder where folks get the idea that something is a right and should be protected?

you won't find "rights" in science texts anymore than you'll find " love"....maybe we should look in philosophy texts?... or are those meaningless?
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Why? I see no problem...only the people involved need to 'prove' their love and use personal criteria to validate it. It is certainly subjective. I never for a moment even implied that our rights, no matter what their origin, were 'meaningless.' (nor is love IMO)
 
Thrilla said:
and this means what?.. they aren't real?.. they aren't valid?.. what?
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They are valid. They are real as we have formed laws around them and use those laws to adjudicate, protect, and enforce those rights. Is marriage real? Valid? Of course...because we recognize it and

Just because they are a man-made construct doesnt mean they arent real. Is marriage real? Valid? Of course...because we recognize it and codify it and participate in (exercise) it. How about your legal recognition to drive a vehicle on public roads? Real? Valid? Enforceable?
 
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Master PO said:
not arguing with you my friend;), but dont believe people when they say man creates rights and puts them into law.

if man created rights, he would surely create rights which violate the rights of other men, as we see with privileges the government creates when they have violated natural rights.

even the Romans recognized natural rights of man
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Who says? Where is the foundation for that in the annals of law OR philosophy?

And who cares what the Romans 'recognized?' :doh

If rights are not a man-made concept...where did they 'come from?'
 
Captain Adverse said:
No. You may believe that if you wish.

I decide to obey the laws of society right up until I decide not to.

Example? I currently own no firearms. In fact no weapons other than those which can be found in a dining room drawer.

However, if it ever seems likely that this society will decide that firearms are no longer a protected individual right to keep and bear? I will begin to arm up, clandestinely, and fight any and all comers who attempt to enforce any other infringements of my other "natural" rights.

I may not live; but I will die certain in my knowledge that I have exercised my NATURAL right to do so. :coffeepap:
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None of that refutes anything I said either. Are you actually reading my posts?

You are alive...that is a natural, biological state. Your continued ability to do so in our society is PROTECTED by the recognition of that right and the laws that enable its enforcement.

LOL, otherwise people could just run you down in the street, shoot you, beat you to death with a baseball bat (unless, in all cases you managed to defend yourself) and there would be no penalty. However, the govt recognizes your right to life and with law...hopes to prevent it by enforcing those laws and if unsuccessful, punishing those that violate your right to life.

In nature... no such thing happens for any other animals.
 
Lursa said:
Who says? Where is the foundation for that in the annals of law OR philosophy?

And who cares what the Romans 'recognized?' :doh

If rights are not a man-made concept...where did they 'come from?'
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from nature, the natural capacity of man

Natural capacities are genetically endowed we are born with them they come from our humaity and cannot lose them. we are born with a vast array of these capacities, such as for walking, learning speaking praying and defending ourselves
 
Master PO said:
cod·i·fy
ˈkädəˌfī,ˈkōdəˌfī/Submit
verb
past tense: codified; past participle: codified
arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code.
synonyms: systematize, systemize, organize, arrange, order, structure; More
arrange according to a plan or system.
"Verdi helped codify an international operatic culture"

rights are unwritten law, and it consist of Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

you cannot codify into code, what is unwritten
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Are you saying that we, here in the US, have not codified (created) laws based on and to protect our rights?

let's start there.....
 
Lursa said:
Are you saying that we, here in the US, have not codified (created) laws based on and to protect our rights?

let's start there.....
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the code is written law.

so we have rights which are unwritten law, which the government recognizes and then creates written law
Code: 
 to secure [enforce] those rights.

but no rights are granted/created by the code.
 
Master PO said:
from nature, the natural capacity of man

Natural capacities are genetically endowed we are born with them they come from our humaity and cannot lose them. we are born with a vast array of these capacities, such as for walking, learning speaking praying and defending ourselves
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Great....thank you! Now...where have scientists ever recorded our genetic disposition for 'rights?' They have mapped the entire human genome...that didnt show up AFAIK.

Also, I didnt realize that walking, eating, learning, speaking, reproducing were rights. If they are...why arent they all protected as well? I dont remember seeing those listed anywhere......
 
Lursa said:
Great....thank you! Now...where have scientists ever recorded our genetic disposition for 'rights?' They have mapped the entire human genome...that didnt show up AFAIK.

Also, I didnt realize that walking, eating, learning, speaking, [/B]reproducing were rights. If they are...why arent they all protected as well? I dont remember seeing those listed anywhere......
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it seems you don't even know the basics!

people have many many rights which are not enumerated, but all fall under the 9th amendment.
 
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