Should schools push physical math more

[beerftw]

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

 

[Parrish]

Seriously, why does it matter how we write or compute when we can utilize technology to gain information?

 

[ajn678]

Most good universities still require higher math classes to be done without calculators. When I was there, all three of my calc courses had quizzes and exams where we could bring nothing in. Having a calculator in high school doesn't seem to be an issue. Most students won't go on to do much other than basic math.

Also how is learning a slide rule different than learning how to use a calculator? One is just simply faster. Honestly you shouldn't need a slide rule to calculate those things either.

 

[MrPeanut]

By physical math do you just mean math without a calculator? I think it could be useful to emphasize stronger arithmetic in public schools. I definitely support having a life skills class in every high school where students have to learn about budgeting, loans, etc. Tech isn't exactly designed by people with poor math skills, but other than that I kind of agree with the sentiment.

 

[beerftw]

Most good universities still require higher math classes to be done without calculators. When I was there, all three of my calc courses had quizzes and exams where we could bring nothing in. Having a calculator in high school doesn't seem to be an issue. Most students won't go on to do much other than basic math.

Also how is learning a slide rule different than learning how to use a calculator? One is just simply faster. Honestly you shouldn't need a slide rule to calculate those things either.

Depends on what you do on whether you use basic math or not. What brought up this thread was an old teacher/machinist who made videos my coworker showed me, the guy even went into detail about how middle school dropouts in and before ww2 had better math skills and could do the most complex calcs without getting a diploma while college grads have a lesser understanding of math today.

Basically most math today is done by computer, the people running it have no idea. Imagine being a middle school dropout and getting a job by the time of ww2 making rifles and having to understand exact maths, fractions, algebra and trigenometry to an exact degree to operate fully manual machines. It was to the point most of those people could literally do it, and operate those machines to precision without a calculator or google. I feel this may be the biggest killer of manufacturing, that what was once common education is now reserved for the highest levels of paid learning, and those highest levels are still pale in comparison to what was once taught as basic education.

 

[beerftw]

By physical math do you just mean math without a calculator? I think it could be useful to emphasize stronger arithmetic in public schools. I definitely support having a life skills class in every high school where students have to learn about budgeting, loans, etc. Tech isn't exactly designed by people with poor math skills, but other than that I kind of agree with the sentiment.

Math in general is a strong skill, a calculator is just fine to use however if you are using that or a computer to do it for you you do not learn or understand the math, the math and knowledge must come first before shortcuts can be made, or else yu only know the shortcut but never once why or how you got there.

 

[Bullseye]

Seriously, why does it matter how we write or compute when we can utilize technology to gain information?

If you trust the technology you're utilizing.

 

[Josie]

Every current math program I know requires students to figure out math problems on paper, use manipulatives, rulers, tape measure, analog clocks, etc. It's a myth that kids aren't being taught how to understand math and "figure it out themselves".

 

[Felis Leo]

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

Yes. Bring back more physical mathematics, bring back Latin & Greek, bring back fine art classes, and bring back cursive.

 

[Parrish]

If you trust the technology you're utilizing.

:roll:.How 1900's.

 

[Grand Mal]

Seriously, why does it matter how we write or compute when we can utilize technology to gain information?

It's independence. It's a useful skill.
It doesn't "matter", really. If you can't tie your shoes there's Velcro.

 

[Bullseye]

:roll:.How 1900's.

Not really. We embrace and depend on technology so much more now than back then; which means an error - accidental or intentional - can have far more impact today.

 

[Napoleon]

I was taught in 2nd grade that I had to learn cursive because colleges would only accept that format in papers. Then the home computer became accessible and nobody wants your chicken scratch anymore. In math, I was taught that I had to be able to solve every problem in written form because we wouldn’t always have a calculator handy. Then cellphones/mini computers happened. And now even words themselves are gradually being replaced by modern hieroglyphics we call emojis. The accessibility of technology has changed what we need to know ourselves.

 

[beerftw]

Every current math program I know requires students to figure out math problems on paper, use manipulatives, rulers, tape measure, analog clocks, etc. It's a myth that kids aren't being taught how to understand math and "figure it out themselves".

Depends on the school, many are going full digital, like here they are just bringing cursive back, others I have ran into from other states never understood more than 3rd grade math because they used computers or calculators for everything. The fact that a dial indicator is too hard for people to understand says education in this nation is quickly becoming among the worst on earth when people from africa in areas with no running water or electricity have better math skills or india etc.

 

[Josie]

Cursive isn't an important skill to learn anymore. -- an elementary teacher

 

[Felis Leo]

I was taught in 2nd grade that I had to learn cursive because colleges would only accept that format in papers. Then the home computer became accessible and nobody wants your chicken scratch anymore. In math, I was taught that I had to be able to solve every problem in written form because we wouldn’t always have a calculator handy. Then cellphones/mini computers happened. And now even words themselves are gradually being replaced by modern hieroglyphics we call emojis. The accessibility of technology has changed what we need to know ourselves.

They used to teach us to sculpt out of clay and learn muscle memory and eye-hand coordination. Now we just need to do searches for STL files for our 3D Printers.

 

[Josie]

Depends on the school, many are going full digital, like here they are just bringing cursive back, others I have ran into from other states never understood more than 3rd grade math because they used computers or calculators for everything. The fact that a dial indicator is too hard for people to understand says education in this nation is quickly becoming among the worst on earth when people from africa in areas with no running water or electricity have better math skills or india etc.

"Full digital" still doesn't mean they just punch numbers and are given the answer. They are taught to work out the problem on their own even when doing a computerized math program. There have always been -- and will always be -- people who didn't fully master the standards in education. That doesn't mean they weren't taught it.

 

[Napoleon]

It's independence. It's a useful skill. It doesn't "matter", really. If you can't tie your shoes there's Velcro.

Useful for what? A sudden transition to a world without this technology is a world where knowing free-hand calculus will be the least of my concerns.

 

[Court Jester]

Seriously, why does it matter how we write or compute when we can utilize technology to gain information?

It is the difference of being just a button pusher and one who can at least at the most rudimentary level begin to deal with problem in ways outside the box. That and it also weeds out some folks... because after all, the world needs ditch diggers too.

 

[beerftw]

I was taught in 2nd grade that I had to learn cursive because colleges would only accept that format in papers. Then the home computer became accessible and nobody wants your chicken scratch anymore. In math, I was taught that I had to be able to solve every problem in written form because we wouldn’t always have a calculator handy. Then cellphones/mini computers happened. And now even words themselves are gradually being replaced by modern hieroglyphics we call emojis. The accessibility of technology has changed what we need to know ourselves.

I really do not have a computer or cellphone handy for much of what I do, infact for much of what I do there is no easy answers, I literally to fix automatic transmissions must master hydraulic, electronic, and mechanical principles and be smarter than an engineer with all that college, with is odd because the average transmission rebuilder I have ever seen is a highschool dropout and in their 50's-60's yet could outsmart an engineer and literally have to to undo their design screwups.

It is not simply well new tech, slide rulers were the calculators hundreds of years ago yet math got taught on paper, they were used by engineers mechanics scientists etc as a faster way, however real math did not dissapear because the slide rule.


Watch as a gas station runs in a power out, and they shut down because the employees can not figure sales tax or figure out hand reciepts because they only knew how to have the computer do it all for them. My mother kept her job because she was one of few even 2 decades ago who could do everything on paper, when I was in the army everything was backed up on paper hand receipts and basic math were required to make it anywhere

 

[beerftw]

"Full digital" still doesn't mean they just punch numbers and are given the answer. They are taught to work out the problem on their own even when doing a computerized math program. There have always been -- and will always be -- people who didn't fully master the standards in education. That doesn't mean they weren't taught it.

Given what I have seen I doubt that is true, on average the recent high school grads have less knowledge than I did in the third grade, many could not even figure out division or multiplication or fractionals. As I already even said cursive too was eliminated, only to be brought back, most likely from parents griping the education system is dumbing down our kids, in reality I agree, We peaked around the 1950's and it seems education went downhill from there.

 

[beerftw]

Cursive isn't an important skill to learn anymore. -- an elementary teacher

Cursive is actually an important skill, it is a form of scriptive writing, much like calligraphy and other script, and I dread the day we need to find the 90+ age bracket survivors to translate text on nuclear reactors because all the workers in xyz plant could not understand the ancient scribbles of the engineer who built it.

 

[ajn678]

Depends on what you do on whether you use basic math or not. What brought up this thread was an old teacher/machinist who made videos my coworker showed me, the guy even went into detail about how middle school dropouts in and before ww2 had better math skills and could do the most complex calcs without getting a diploma while college grads have a lesser understanding of math today.

Basically most math today is done by computer, the people running it have no idea. Imagine being a middle school dropout and getting a job by the time of ww2 making rifles and having to understand exact maths, fractions, algebra and trigenometry to an exact degree to operate fully manual machines. It was to the point most of those people could literally do it, and operate those machines to precision without a calculator or google. I feel this may be the biggest killer of manufacturing, that what was once common education is now reserved for the highest levels of paid learning, and those highest levels are still pale in comparison to what was once taught as basic education.

I don't believe for a second that "middle school dropouts" are better at math than modern college graduates that have taken higher math courses. I graduated in the past decade and most certainly did none of my math on a calculator when it actually mattered. Manufacturing is dead in the US because its much cheaper to do it in other places. It has literally nothing to do with math abilities.

Complaining about calculators being used is like complaining about cars being used instead of horses. The fact of the matter is, computers are much more precise than humans when it comes to calculating values. Every field worth its salt uses tools such as calculators to make sure that worker's time is better spent in other aspects than finding a basic fraction or integral.

 

[Napoleon]

I really do not have a computer or cellphone handy for much of what I do, infact for much of what I do there is no easy answers, I literally to fix automatic transmissions must master hydraulic, electronic, and mechanical principles and be smarter than an engineer with all that college, with is odd because the average transmission rebuilder I have ever seen is a highschool dropout and in their 50's-60's yet could outsmart an engineer and literally have to to undo their design screwups.

It is not simply well new tech, slide rulers were the calculators hundreds of years ago yet math got taught on paper, they were used by engineers mechanics scientists etc as a faster way, however real math did not dissapear because the slide rule.


Watch as a gas station runs in a power out, and they shut down because the employees can not figure sales tax or figure out hand reciepts because they only knew how to have the computer do it all for them. My mother kept her job because she was one of few even 2 decades ago who could do everything on paper, when I was in the army everything was backed up on paper hand receipts and basic math were required to make it anywhere

It’s certainly important to have people in a society who do know the math. Otherwise no one would ever know if the technology they’re relying on is defective. College graduates who struggle to successfully apply text book concepts to real world scenarios is something I’ve encountered in my line of work as well. I think we’d agree that experience is often the better (and less expensive) teacher. But, at least to me, math above and beyond the basics has become more of a specialist occupation rather than something that necessarily needs to be commonly known.

 

[Josie]

Given what I have seen I doubt that is true, on average the recent high school grads have less knowledge than I did in the third grade, many could not even figure out division or multiplication or fractionals. As I already even said cursive too was eliminated, only to be brought back, most likely from parents griping the education system is dumbing down our kids, in reality I agree, We peaked around the 1950's and it seems education went downhill from there.

When was the last time you reviewed or researched education mathematics programs currently used in schools? Have you read the Common Core Standards for mathematics? Kids are taught how to understand the how and why of math. Just because you're encountering people who you perceive as less intelligent than you doesn't mean that it isn't being taught. The problem is that it isn't being mastered by some.