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Protesters crash DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen's dinner amid furor over family separations

There's a difference between legal immigrants, who are welcome, and illegal immigrants, who violate existing federal immigration law.
Why conflate the two when they are very different?

I've heard people on the right, including the ICE director, say many times, like you did, that families taking their kids or sending their kids to try to get to the U.S. was somehow "inhumane" (how the ICE director phrased it) or otherwise wrong. My point is when the alternative for the kids is gangs or getting murdered, it's entirely rational and likely by far the best of really bad options.

I'm not arguing we can or should accommodate every person in the world with bad options because we can't handle the influx of people. I'm just pointing out that IMO trying to save your child from a life with a violent gang or getting murdered is actually admirable, not "messed up" or "inhumane."

Only an honest recounting of the sequence of events that led to the nation being in this mess. Or do you have more of significance to add to it?

If you're talking about immigration and blaming only Democrats, there is no point in discussing that particular part of this mess. Might as well bang my head on the door jam for all the good it will do when all you have to do is reasonably examine the news and you know that position is nonsense.
 
I've heard people on the right, including the ICE director, say many times, like you did, that families taking their kids or sending their kids to try to get to the U.S. was somehow "inhumane" (how the ICE director phrased it) or otherwise wrong. My point is when the alternative for the kids is gangs or getting murdered, it's entirely rational and likely by far the best of really bad options.

You don't really expect me to believe that the only option, the only choice left to illegal immigrants is this dangerous trek across multiple nations in between their starting point and the US, and illegally entering what they've been told is the 'land of milk and honey' (where they are rewarded with cash government subsidies), do you?

Need to remove any and all motivations for illegals to entering and staying in the US illegally, so yes, a strong supporter of eVerify and harsh punishments for employers who don't comply.

I'm not arguing we can or should accommodate every person in the world with bad options because we can't handle the influx of people. I'm just pointing out that IMO trying to save your child from a life with a violent gang or getting murdered is actually admirable, not "messed up" or "inhumane."

No, trying to save your child is not messed up nor inhumane, however, some of the decisions that illegals make which brings them to the US as illegal immigrants aren't the best choices.

If you're talking about immigration and blaming only Democrats, there is no point in discussing that particular part of this mess. Might as well bang my head on the door jam for all the good it will do when all you have to do is reasonably examine the news and you know that position is nonsense.

So no additional points in the recounting of the events that set the stage for the nation to arrive here. OK.
 
You don't really expect me to believe that the only option, the only choice left to illegal immigrants is this dangerous trek across multiple nations in between their starting point and the US, and illegally entering what they've been told is the 'land of milk and honey' (where they are rewarded with cash government subsidies), do you?

I didn't say it was the 'only' choice, just a rational one. No need to misrepresent my argument.

Need to remove any and all motivations for illegals to entering and staying in the US illegally, so yes, a strong supporter of eVerify and harsh punishments for employers who don't comply.

Fine

No, trying to save your child is not messed up nor inhumane, however, some of the decisions that illegals make which brings them to the US as illegal immigrants aren't the best choices.

OK, not the best. What's an obviously better option for a mother or father with a 9 year old told he either joins a gang or gets murdered?

So no additional points in the recounting of the events that set the stage for the nation to arrive here. OK.

Again, if you want to blame all this mess on Democrats, I can address points all day and it won't change your mind. But for starters, as you know, Reagan was POTUS for 8 years and he signed an amnesty. W. Bush was POTUS for 8 years, including 6 years with a GOP House and Senate, and what did they accomplish?
 
I didn't say it was the 'only' choice, just a rational one. No need to misrepresent my argument.



Fine



OK, not the best. What's an obviously better option for a mother or father with a 9 year old told he either joins a gang or gets murdered?



Again, if you want to blame all this mess on Democrats, I can address points all day and it won't change your mind. But for starters, as you know, Reagan was POTUS for 8 years and he signed an amnesty. W. Bush was POTUS for 8 years, including 6 years with a GOP House and Senate, and what did they accomplish?

The Regan amnesty deal was amnesty for greater border security, and the Dem's welshed on that deal, so nice going mentioning only the 1/2 of the story that strikes a chord with you.

On following presidents, I might even tend to agree that nothing substantive was done.
 
Nope. It is legal, and a cherished and protected right that you don't respect

1. You do not have a right to stalk someone.
2. You do not have a right to chase someone onto personal property in order to abuse them simply because you do not like them.

On top of that, even if you could get away with these things, that doesn't make them right. Which is something you keep avoiding. This is wrong. This is abhorrent.


but my argument is more along the lines that Sec. Nielsen took the job with the power and part of exercising power in a FREE SOCIETY is having to listen to citizens complain when you take obscene positions and enforce unethical policies.

Well it looks like Maxine Waters is now experiencing Freedom, your style.

Maxine Waters says she's faced increased threats, cancels attending 2 events

Gosh. If only someone could have predicted that certain kinds of behavior lead to tit-for-tat-ing, and ante-upping, in a manner that is only ever-more abusive.

The best of liberals remind us of uncomfortable injustices, and spur others to act to fix them. The worst of them tear at the roots of civilization, heedless of its fragility, heedless of what they wrought, and refusing to take responsibility for it.
 
The Regan amnesty deal was amnesty for greater border security, and the Dem's welshed on that deal, so nice going mentioning only the 1/2 of the story that strikes a chord with you.

On following presidents, I might even tend to agree that nothing substantive was done.

Orrin hatch was the first to introduce legislation to free employers from penalties for hiring illegals.

The republican party has a history of screaming at the desperate people while being deafeningly silent on those who draw them here in the first place.
 
Orrin hatch was the first to introduce legislation to free employers from penalties for hiring illegals.

The republican party has a history of screaming at the desperate people while being deafeningly silent on those who draw them here in the first place.

One Senator out of many. Hmm. OK. Fair enough. None of that **** helped any. So it was a bi-partisan political elitist effort to get us into this mess. Even that is fair enough.

Just as it is fair to say that it is obvious that at this point in time there is one political elite party that isn't willing to help solve the immigration mess.

[h=3]Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis | TheHill[/h]thehill.com/homenews/.../393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-cri...
Jun 19, 2018 - Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday ... Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority ... to add poison-pill provisions to anyimmigration bill that came to the floor.
 
1. You do not have a right to stalk someone.
2. You do not have a right to chase someone onto personal property in order to abuse them simply because you do not like them.

Your arguments are tiring as hell - you must need a thesaurus so you can keep using trigger words that you appear to believe are true by you asserting them.

I've addressed this many times, but I'll do it one more time. The protest wasn't about "liking" Sec. Nielsen or different "ideas" or "beliefs" but specifically enumerated objections to a set of policies her minions are enforcing at her direction.

Actions.

I've embiggened it so maybe you won't dishonestly ignore that point again, and misrepresent AGAIN what the protest was all about.

On top of that, even if you could get away with these things, that doesn't make them right. Which is something you keep avoiding. This is wrong. This is abhorrent.

Again, we have a fundamental disagreement about whether protest is wrong. I don't believe it is, our history is chock full of examples of protests, including by our Founders at the Boston Tea party for example, running into labor disputes, the Civil Rights era, the Vietnam era, that went FAR beyond chanting some words to a person while at dinner, and there's a good reason why protests are a protected right in this country, and that right must be protected ESPECIALLY when it's directed at the most powerful in our government and ESPECIALLY when such protests cause our overlords discomfort.

Well it looks like Maxine Waters is now experiencing Freedom, your style.

Maxine Waters says she's faced increased threats, cancels attending 2 events

Gosh. If only someone could have predicted that certain kinds of behavior lead to tit-for-tat-ing, and ante-upping, in a manner that is only ever-more abusive.

The best of liberals remind us of uncomfortable injustices, and spur others to act to fix them. The worst of them tear at the roots of civilization, heedless of its fragility, heedless of what they wrought, and refusing to take responsibility for it.

Yes, your slippery slope argument, that you trace to liberals of course at the top of that slippery slope. Does it ever occur to you that the top of that slippery slope sits government officials, and protesting their ACTIONS is an American tradition.

I have a question about our history. Can you name any of the many injustices corrected during our history solved by civil disagreements, letters to the editor, calm protests? Do you think the powerful cede their authority willingly? When has that happened in America? The only example that comes to my mind are the advancements in recent years in gay rights, but the difference there is the powerful were on the side of LGBT because they made them money, were good markets, made for good workers.
 
One Senator out of many. Hmm. OK. Fair enough. None of that **** helped any. So it was a bi-partisan political elitist effort to get us into this mess. Even that is fair enough.

Just as it is fair to say that it is obvious that at this point in time there is one political elite party that isn't willing to help solve the immigration mess.

Funny that "willing to help solve" jlmeans "just do what we want".
 
The Regan amnesty deal was amnesty for greater border security, and the Dem's welshed on that deal, so nice going mentioning only the 1/2 of the story that strikes a chord with you.

On following presidents, I might even tend to agree that nothing substantive was done.

LOL, there's nothing to really agree or disagree with - Bush II didn't do anything substantive, and neither did Clinton or Obama, although during the Obama years net illegal immigration into this country slowed to a crawl, by most data was zero for 8 years.

And the obvious reason for that is illegals filled the needs of employers, and so there was no incentive for either party to crack down on illegals that were making the donor class a lot of money. We effectively invited them here, laid out a red carpet, and this was the system in place for decades, through Republican and Democratic administrations, no break. Just look at the numbers - roughly 500k new illegal immigrants per year over a very long period of time. That's not an accident and it had really nothing to do with party. It had to do with money, which is how it works in this country. Those with it didn't want to change the system, and so it didn't change.

I'll end with this. My problem with the immigration debate is there are people like Trump blaming the problems on illegal immigrants. Those people have no power and I'm sick and damn tired of people blaming the powerLESS for the sins of the powerful. The illegals themselves are just pawns, people we invited here to work, when it suited us, and now that they're no longer wanted, we want to **** them in the rear end on the way out the door by pretending THEY are the problem. It's offensive to me. If anyone wants to blame someone, blame the people flying around in private jets sitting in the corner offices - all the problems of immigration trace right to their ****ing door steps. Illegals are here in this country in big numbers because WE (the moneyed class who decides these things) WANTED THEM HERE! Illegals just responded to incentive WE OFFERED TO THEM ON A PLATTER. Come here, work, we'll pay you, and no one and especially no one in the Federal government will ask any questions.

It's for that reason that I divide the issue into two pieces. The first are the PEOPLE here illegally. For those who have done the right thing, worked, raised families, stayed out of trouble - we invited them here and need to treat them as if we did. So I don't agree with deporting long term residents like that. I don't think they need a path to citizenship, but I'd extend to them the DACA deal. And on the border, I have no objection to strict enforcement as long as we also enforce and prosecute and fine illegal EMPLOYERS who are the draw, and the actual problem.
 
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LOL, there's nothing to really agree or disagree with - Bush II didn't do anything substantive, and neither did Clinton or Obama, although during the Obama years net illegal immigration into this country slowed to a crawl, by most data was zero for 8 years.

And the obvious reason for that is illegals filled the needs of employers, and so there was no incentive for either party to crack down on illegals that were making the donor class a lot of money. We effectively invited them here, laid out a red carpet, and this was the system in place for decades, through Republican and Democratic administrations, no break. Just look at the numbers - roughly 500k new illegal immigrants per year over a very long period of time. That's not an accident and it had really nothing to do with party. It had to do with money, which is how it works in this country. Those with it didn't want to change the system, and so it didn't change.

I'll end with this. My problem with the immigration debate is there are people like Trump blaming the problems on illegal immigrants. Those people have no power and I'm sick and damn tired of people blaming the powerLESS for the sins of the powerful. The illegals themselves are just pawns, people we invited here to work, when it suited us, and now that they're no longer wanted, we want to **** them in the rear end on the way out the door by pretending THEY are the problem. It's offensive to me. If anyone wants to blame someone, blame the people flying around in private jets sitting in the corner offices - all the problems of immigration trace right to their ****ing door steps. Illegals are here in this country in big numbers because WE (the moneyed class who decides these things) WANTED THEM HERE! Illegals just responded to incentive WE OFFERED TO THEM ON A PLATTER. Come here, work, we'll pay you, and no one and especially no one in the Federal government will ask any questions.

It's for that reason that I divide the issue into two pieces. The first are the PEOPLE here illegally. For those who have done the right thing, worked, raised families, stayed out of trouble - we invited them here and need to treat them as if we did. So I don't agree with deporting long term residents like that. I don't think they need a path to citizenship, but I'd extend to them the DACA deal. And on the border, I have no objection to strict enforcement as long as we also enforce and prosecute and fine illegal EMPLOYERS who are the draw, and the actual problem.

Please see #232
 

Right, you've accepted it's a bipartisan problem until now and the party (the GOP) now falling all over themselves to see how badly they can **** illegals in this country is just trying to solve the problem honestly and it's only the Democrats who are getting in the way. Got it. :roll:
 
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Right, you've accepted it's a bipartisan problem until now and the party (the GOP) now falling all over themselves to see how badly they can **** illegals in this country is just trying to solve the problem honestly and it's only the Democrats who are getting in the way. Got it. :roll:

So what solutions do the Dems offer? None.

In fact, the Dems won't even consider or negotiate even when 2 bills from the GOP are offered for consideration.

So that's what some consider progress to a solution? A bi-partisan solution? Sure doesn't seem that way to me.

Perhaps even more of the political elite need to be voted out of office to get a bi-partisan solution, but a solution needs to passed, signed into law and implemented, that part is clear.

Given the lurch to the hard left the Dems have taken, or forced upon them, with severe cases of TDS, it's not looking bright for a solution.
 
Your arguments are tiring as hell

:) Your continued retreats to the "but technically it's not illegal" defense are as well - as though lack of arrest and prosecution for assholish and abusive behavior somehow excused it.


Of course, that's not really what excuses it in your mind. What excuses it in your mind is that it was done to harm members of a tribe other than the one which you are party to - and abusing the Other (that awful, degenerate, Other, who deserves whatever they get) is a good in and of itself for the Tribalist.

Again, we have a fundamental disagreement about whether protest is wrong.

We do not. I have no problem with protest in and of itself. But calling any level of stalking and targeting members of the Other and calling it "protest" in order to wrap it in some kind of veneer of excusability by arguing for it's Constitutionality is ridiculous. When the Trump Troll Hordes try to destroy the restaurant that didn't want to serve the Trump Administration Spokeswoman, that was wrong. When the leftist mob tries to ruin the lives of the owners of Memories Pizza, that's wrong. When you single out, stalk, and attempt to abuse (not to convince, to abuse, to do harm to) members of the other tribe, that's wrong. It's also incredibly damaging to the nation, as it reduces social trust, increases partisan fear, distrust, anger, and hatred, and leads to an escalation of coercion, intimidation, and abuse.

I don't believe it is, our history is chock full of examples of protests, including by our Founders at the Boston Tea party for example, running into labor disputes, the Civil Rights era, the Vietnam era, that went FAR beyond chanting some words to a person while at dinner,

Indeed. During the 1970s there were years where we saw a couple of bombings a day. A century before, the KKK protested Reconstruction, mostly by targeting blacks perceived as acting uppity. The fact that an angry mob or has decided they are incensed by a particular topic does not grant them any kind of moral standing.

I have a question about our history. Can you name any of the many injustices corrected during our history solved by civil disagreements, letters to the editor, calm protests?

In fact, there is a street named after the man who - more than anyone else - personifies the argument that, to be effective, protests must appeal to others, rather than seek to damage them in virtually every city in this great land that I have ever visited.


In contrast, how much success has, oh, say, the militia movement had in getting changes in policy due to their protests? How about the recent rise of the Alt-Rightists and their protests in Charlottesville?

When you become the bully, you don't get seen as a group of decent people being treated unjustly by an unjust system, and you don't get seen as a brave band of folks standing up for a just cause. You get seen as a bully, and one who therefore deserves to lose.

Do you think the powerful cede their authority willingly?

:lol: what part of human nature makes you think that the Trump Administration would change policy because those opposed to that policy demonstrated themselves to be abusive assholes?

The only example that comes to my mind are the advancements in recent years in gay rights, but the difference there is the powerful were on the side of LGBT because they made them money, were good markets, made for good workers.

Recommend you take a look at the changes in public opinion on that question. The SSM-etc. movement won because they managed to successfully appeal to broad swathes of folks, and they lose ground when and where they slip into becoming the bullies.
 
If you're going to abduct kids, expect blow-back. That's how the world usually works.
 
:) Your continued retreats to the "but technically it's not illegal" defense are as well - as though lack of arrest and prosecution for assholish and abusive behavior somehow excused it.

You know, I don't enjoy debates with people who snip comments and ignore them, then make the same point again and again. I've already addressed this point by pointing out you are LYING when you say that's been my defense. It's not and hasn't been, I told you that, and you repeat it.

I'm done with this debate. You can have the rest of the same dishonest garbage you've repeated many times as your last word.
 
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