"Our salvation does not lie in Washington DC."

[Goshin]

(Note: theology forum)
I first heard that from some preacher whose name escapes me now, and I think he was quoting someone else. Doesn't matter who said it first...

I think it is correct. Certainly we know our spiritual, eternal salvation does not lie in Washington DC, in government or law or legislation.

Our "salvation" (in the temporal sense) as a nation, as a people, doesn't lay in DC either.

It will come through God, through faith, if it comes to America at all.

My interest in politics has declined a great deal in the past decade, as I've gotten older. More and more I see that people's problems don't get solved at the federal, state or local gov't level... they get solved on a very different level indeed, when they're solved at all.

Sure, the government can makes things somewhat better, or a whole lot worse. Such is the nature of government.

But the cure for what ails us as a people will never be passed into legislation, ruled on by a court, or signed into law by a President.

There's only one cure and He doesn't need legislative approval to go to work fixing anyone's life... just your personal acceptance.

As I get older, the more I see my time is better spent working with individuals who are in need, than arguing about legislation or writing my congressman. I see more effect in inviting someone to my church and watching their faith grow, seeing them learn to deal with their problems from faith, than from any social program or gov't mandate or endorsement.

It's not a matter of getting the "right people" in DC. It's a matter of getting as many hearts right with God on your street as possible. My church is getting meth-heads off the street and into rehab, and then filling the pews with them when they're clean, and I see more difference in my area from that, than from anything that came out of Washington or the State House in the past twenty years.

Sure, I still vote. But I don't look for major change to come from it... when all is said and done, in the long term few politicians change things much. People engaging with people, in the name of God and with His love in them, changes things though.

That's where the majority of my focus is these days.

Maybe someone needed to hear this... or maybe I just needed to say it.

 

[Phys251]

(Note: theology forum)
I first heard that from some preacher whose name escapes me now, and I think he was quoting someone else. Doesn't matter who said it first...

I think it is correct. Certainly we know our spiritual, eternal salvation does not lie in Washington DC, in government or law or legislation.

Our "salvation" (in the temporal sense) as a nation, as a people, doesn't lay in DC either.

It will come through God, through faith, if it comes to America at all.

My interest in politics has declined a great deal in the past decade, as I've gotten older. More and more I see that people's problems don't get solved at the federal, state or local gov't level... they get solved on a very different level indeed, when they're solved at all.

Sure, the government can makes things somewhat better, or a whole lot worse. Such is the nature of government.

But the cure for what ails us as a people will never be passed into legislation, ruled on by a court, or signed into law by a President.

There's only one cure and He doesn't need legislative approval to go to work fixing anyone's life... just your personal acceptance.

As I get older, the more I see my time is better spent working with individuals who are in need, than arguing about legislation or writing my congressman. I see more effect in inviting someone to my church and watching their faith grow, seeing them learn to deal with their problems from faith, than from any social program or gov't mandate or endorsement.

It's not a matter of getting the "right people" in DC. It's a matter of getting as many hearts right with God on your street as possible. My church is getting meth-heads off the street and into rehab, and then filling the pews with them when they're clean, and I see more difference in my area from that, than from anything that came out of Washington or the State House in the past twenty years.

Sure, I still vote. But I don't look for major change to come from it... when all is said and done, in the long term few politicians change things much. People engaging with people, in the name of God and with His love in them, changes things though.

That's where the majority of my focus is these days.

Maybe someone needed to hear this... or maybe I just needed to say it.

The government's role is not to get people into Heaven. Do you really think some people believe otherwise?

 

[Goshin]

The government's role is not to get people into Heaven. Do you really think some people believe otherwise?

I think you missed my point entirely.

 

[Phys251]

I think you missed my point entirely.

Your thread title literally says "Our salvation does not lie in Washington DC." You were talking about salvation as getting into Heaven, right? Or is this a different kind of salvation?

 

[Goshin]

Your thread title literally says "Our salvation does not lie in Washington DC." You were talking about salvation as getting into Heaven, right? Or is this a different kind of salvation?

It has more than one meaning.

"Salvation"

1. 1. GENERAL
   preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
   "they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
   Similar:
   lifeline
   preservation
   conservation
   means of escape
   
   
2. 2. THEOLOGY
   deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
   "the Christian gospel of salvation for all mankind"

Your thread title literally says "Our salvation does not lie in Washington DC." You were talking about salvation as getting into Heaven, right? Or is this a different kind of salvation?

 

[Phys251]

It has more than one meaning.

"Salvation"

1. 1. GENERAL
   preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
   "they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
   Similar:
   lifeline
   preservation
   conservation
   means of escape
   
   
2. 2. THEOLOGY
   deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
   "the Christian gospel of salvation for all mankind"

I realize that. Which salvation were you referring to?

 

[EdwinWillers]

Excellent point(s); thank you; and I agree 100%.

While God institutes governments for the general purpose of keeping order, He never intended, nor did He ever give them the power to save, eternally and arguably, even temporally. At best, they can only do what God sanctioned them to do - keep order. And as you note, more often than not they go far beyond that mandate, doing more harm than they do good - being populated by fallen humans whose tendencies are always towards evil when not trusting in Him.

Yet many still look to government as their "savior," as the solution to all life's evils - such is, in fact, an unwritten premise for this "Debate Politics" forum, if you think about it. Beyond "order," too many believe it's the government's responsibility (and right) to solve our problems rather than be limited by this simple and clear sanction.

Indeed, this [false] notion of the role of government underlies the very premise of our Constitution. Article 1, Section 8 explicitly delineates the role of our government in very specific terms, negating the false role presumed upon it by those who believe the government's role should be more than that which God gave it.

I'm mindful of a popular Reagan quote: “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.”

(Note: theology forum)
I first heard that from some preacher whose name escapes me now, and I think he was quoting someone else. Doesn't matter who said it first...

I think it is correct. Certainly we know our spiritual, eternal salvation does not lie in Washington DC, in government or law or legislation.

Our "salvation" (in the temporal sense) as a nation, as a people, doesn't lay in DC either.

It will come through God, through faith, if it comes to America at all.

My interest in politics has declined a great deal in the past decade, as I've gotten older. More and more I see that people's problems don't get solved at the federal, state or local gov't level... they get solved on a very different level indeed, when they're solved at all.

Sure, the government can makes things somewhat better, or a whole lot worse. Such is the nature of government.

But the cure for what ails us as a people will never be passed into legislation, ruled on by a court, or signed into law by a President.

There's only one cure and He doesn't need legislative approval to go to work fixing anyone's life... just your personal acceptance.

As I get older, the more I see my time is better spent working with individuals who are in need, than arguing about legislation or writing my congressman. I see more effect in inviting someone to my church and watching their faith grow, seeing them learn to deal with their problems from faith, than from any social program or gov't mandate or endorsement.

It's not a matter of getting the "right people" in DC. It's a matter of getting as many hearts right with God on your street as possible. My church is getting meth-heads off the street and into rehab, and then filling the pews with them when they're clean, and I see more difference in my area from that, than from anything that came out of Washington or the State House in the past twenty years.

Sure, I still vote. But I don't look for major change to come from it... when all is said and done, in the long term few politicians change things much. People engaging with people, in the name of God and with His love in them, changes things though.

That's where the majority of my focus is these days.

Maybe someone needed to hear this... or maybe I just needed to say it.

 

[Slartibartfast]

(Note: theology forum)
I first heard that from some preacher whose name escapes me now, and I think he was quoting someone else. Doesn't matter who said it first...

I think it is correct. Certainly we know our spiritual, eternal salvation does not lie in Washington DC, in government or law or legislation.

Our "salvation" (in the temporal sense) as a nation, as a people, doesn't lay in DC either.

It will come through God, through faith, if it comes to America at all.

My interest in politics has declined a great deal in the past decade, as I've gotten older. More and more I see that people's problems don't get solved at the federal, state or local gov't level... they get solved on a very different level indeed, when they're solved at all.

Sure, the government can makes things somewhat better, or a whole lot worse. Such is the nature of government.

But the cure for what ails us as a people will never be passed into legislation, ruled on by a court, or signed into law by a President.

There's only one cure and He doesn't need legislative approval to go to work fixing anyone's life... just your personal acceptance.

As I get older, the more I see my time is better spent working with individuals who are in need, than arguing about legislation or writing my congressman. I see more effect in inviting someone to my church and watching their faith grow, seeing them learn to deal with their problems from faith, than from any social program or gov't mandate or endorsement.

It's not a matter of getting the "right people" in DC. It's a matter of getting as many hearts right with God on your street as possible. My church is getting meth-heads off the street and into rehab, and then filling the pews with them when they're clean, and I see more difference in my area from that, than from anything that came out of Washington or the State House in the past twenty years.

Sure, I still vote. But I don't look for major change to come from it... when all is said and done, in the long term few politicians change things much. People engaging with people, in the name of God and with His love in them, changes things though.

That's where the majority of my focus is these days.

Maybe someone needed to hear this... or maybe I just needed to say it.

The idea of "salvation as a nation" is an interesting one and one I am not sure squares well with Christianity which is focused on the individual and the church as a whole. It works for the Jewish faith, sure if we are specifically discussing Israel.

However, I agree with your greater point and its summed up nicely as saying "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar". Governments/nations and religion are entirely different things, per the new testament.

 

[Daisy]

David stated it best in Psalm 146:3-5...

"Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God,"

Jeremiah also makes a valid point in Jeremiah 17:5...

"This is what Jehovah says:
Cursed is the man who puts his trust in mere humans,
Who relies on human power,
And whose heart turns away from Jehovah."

 

[Dragonfly]

It's a matter of getting as many hearts right with God on your street as possible.

And if "your god", and "your street" is any one of the dozens/hundreds or so out there that are not the one you believe in/live on, do you still support that idea?

If "your god" and "your street" happen to be Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Mormon, some version of an indigenous "pagan" variety, Wiccan.....
You're on-board with that?

I'm sure the Westboro Baptists feel they're "right with god".
I'm sure the FLDS cults feel they're "right with god".

Maybe the real answer isn't faith in a supernatural entity, but faith in basic human decency towards others?

 

[Goshin]

And if "your god", and "your street" is any one of the dozens/hundreds or so out there that are not the one you believe in/live on, do you still support that idea?

If "your god" and "your street" happen to be Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Mormon, some version of an indigenous "pagan" variety, Wiccan.....
You're on-board with that?

I'm sure the Westboro Baptists feel they're "right with god".
I'm sure the FLDS cults feel they're "right with god".

Maybe the real answer isn't faith in a supernatural entity, but faith in basic human decency towards others?

I am a Christian, speaking from a Christian perspective, a Christian faith, in what was (until very recently) considered a Christian nation.

I am not of these other religions you mention. While I have a certain level of respect for most of them, they are not my faith... and in my personal opinion, what America most needs is some real-true Jesus in more hearts.

There ya go. Plain enough?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Another day, another useless anti-government rant from another pulpit, a pulpit kept tax free by the very government they launch their diatribes at.
Tax all churches.

 

[Daisy]

A country who continues to legalize sin cannot expect God to bless them...

 

[Goshin]

Excellent point(s); thank you; and I agree 100%.

While God institutes governments for the general purpose of keeping order, He never intended, nor did He ever give them the power to save, eternally and arguably, even temporally. At best, they can only do what God sanctioned them to do - keep order. And as you note, more often than not they go far beyond that mandate, doing more harm than they do good - being populated by fallen humans whose tendencies are always towards evil when not trusting in Him.

Yet many still look to government as their "savior," as the solution to all life's evils - such is, in fact, an unwritten premise for this "Debate Politics" forum, if you think about it. Beyond "order," too many believe it's the government's responsibility (and right) to solve our problems rather than be limited by this simple and clear sanction.

Indeed, this [false] notion of the role of government underlies the very premise of our Constitution. Article 1, Section 8 explicitly delineates the role of our government in very specific terms, negating the false role presumed upon it by those who believe the government's role should be more than that which God gave it.

I'm mindful of a popular Reagan quote: “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.”

The problem comes when people think they can use government to make people "better"... or, worst of all, think they can legislate Utopia, if only they can get everyone on board.

Much evil is caused thereby.

The only cure for what ails humanity is a change in the heart, and in my experience that comes from meeting Jesus, as an individual soul.

 

[EdwinWillers]

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." (I Tim 2:1ff)

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 10:38ff)

"It is better to take refuge in the Lord Than to trust in man." (Ps 118:8)

"Thus says the Lord, “Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the Lord." (Jer 17:5) and,
“Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord And whose trust is the Lord." (v 7)

The problem comes when people think they can use government to make people "better"... or, worst of all, think they can legislate Utopia, if only they can get everyone on board.

Much evil is caused thereby.

The only cure for what ails humanity is a change in the heart, and in my experience that comes from meeting Jesus, as an individual soul.

 

[Daisy]

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

Great scripture where Paul describes exactly how and why we are to pray for all men, including public officials...

 

[vesper]

This thread has made my night. Thank you.

 

[EdwinWillers]

Great scripture where Paul describes exactly how and why we are to pray for all men, including public officials...

Exactly. Governments exist to keep the order that people may lead tranquil and peaceful lives; but no government can do that without a people educated in, and dedicated to godliness.

 

[vesper]

As believers, we are called to pray without ceasing. In other words, you are in constant conversation with the Lord.

 

[GClevelandFan]

Another day, another useless anti-government rant from another pulpit, a pulpit kept tax free by the very government they launch their diatribes at.
Tax all churches.

The only person I see ranting is you. Do you not realize that if Christian salvation is not put in government, Christian Nationalism, Social Conservatism(social engineering) and attempts to theocratize government will cease? Do you not realize that Christian Nationalism is nationalistic? "I stand for the flag, I kneel for the cross." The entire reason there were DOMA laws, in god we trust, yadayadaya is because of this very emphasis on putting your salvation in washington d.c(or other governments). If the Christian has no wish to impose his ideas through the use of the ballot box or legislation on the society through the mechanism of government, why should he be criticized as pertains to social policy?

I hold that Social Conservatism as policy cannot function without the mechanism of the force of law. That is my conclusion.

He holds that our salvation does not lie in Washington D.C. I am in agreement.

 

[Overitall]

(Note: theology forum)
I first heard that from some preacher whose name escapes me now, and I think he was quoting someone else. Doesn't matter who said it first...

I think it is correct. Certainly we know our spiritual, eternal salvation does not lie in Washington DC, in government or law or legislation.

Our "salvation" (in the temporal sense) as a nation, as a people, doesn't lay in DC either.

It will come through God, through faith, if it comes to America at all.

My interest in politics has declined a great deal in the past decade, as I've gotten older. More and more I see that people's problems don't get solved at the federal, state or local gov't level... they get solved on a very different level indeed, when they're solved at all.

Sure, the government can makes things somewhat better, or a whole lot worse. Such is the nature of government.

But the cure for what ails us as a people will never be passed into legislation, ruled on by a court, or signed into law by a President.

There's only one cure and He doesn't need legislative approval to go to work fixing anyone's life... just your personal acceptance.

As I get older, the more I see my time is better spent working with individuals who are in need, than arguing about legislation or writing my congressman. I see more effect in inviting someone to my church and watching their faith grow, seeing them learn to deal with their problems from faith, than from any social program or gov't mandate or endorsement.

It's not a matter of getting the "right people" in DC. It's a matter of getting as many hearts right with God on your street as possible. My church is getting meth-heads off the street and into rehab, and then filling the pews with them when they're clean, and I see more difference in my area from that, than from anything that came out of Washington or the State House in the past twenty years.

Sure, I still vote. But I don't look for major change to come from it... when all is said and done, in the long term few politicians change things much. People engaging with people, in the name of God and with His love in them, changes things though.

That's where the majority of my focus is these days.

Maybe someone needed to hear this... or maybe I just needed to say it.

Very well said. I'm inclined to think the decline in our Nation is due to the rejection of religion throughout the leaders in government. That plus the generation I grew up in being influenced by the notion that there really are no rules of morality binding them (it's all relative). This mindset found its futile ground in the minds of children we were responsible for raising.

 

[GClevelandFan]

Very well said. I'm inclined to think the decline in our Nation is due to the rejection of religion throughout the leaders in government. That plus the generation I grew up in being influenced by the notion that there really are no rules of morality binding them (it's all relative). This mindset found its futile ground in the minds of children we were responsible for raising.

Perhaps. But in truth, perhaps this is a good way to re-evaluate our modern theology.

I predict as long as we as Christians venture to enact social policy with the force of law, so will the decline in religious belief continue. It is declining for other reasons, of course, but this is one of the big ones.

It is when the law mingles with Christianity that Christianity is perverted.

 

[Goshin]

Perhaps. But in truth, perhaps this is a good way to re-evaluate our modern theology.

I predict as long as we as Christians venture to enact social policy with the force of law, so will the decline in religious belief continue. It is declining for other reasons, of course, but this is one of the big ones.

It is when the law mingles with Christianity that Christianity is perverted.

I am inclined to agree, in general.

For instance, gather 100 Christians of various denominations and get them to try to decide what vices and immoralities should be banned. Chaos! You'd have trouble getting even any ten to agree on any major points.

The answer is not to ban things, or force people to be "good" at gunpoint, but to teach, educate and enlighten, and let God's spirit lead each believer in determining what he should do and not do.

CS Lewis said “An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons—marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning.”