Household Debt Reaches $17.5 Trillion in Fourth Quarter; Delinquency Rates Rise

[Peter]

Most people are paid enough. So thats not it.

Oh, really is that why people are getting into massive debt?
The US minimum wage is a joke and Americans are paid a paltry sum compared to the same jobs anywhere else.

That and the almost total lack of holidays means I would never even consider taking a job in ther US.
No paid sick leave at all?
No wonder Americans who move to Europe for a job are so surprised by the extra benefits and paid sick leave we take for absolute granted and yet companies still flock to be here and make vast profits.

 

[stealthycat]

So .... yeah! The phrase "in the years .... from" means you're cherry picking too.

go back to 1800 if you want to and look at the trillions in debt and how it was added

12 of the last 16 years, Democrat presidents
3 of the top 5 % gainers, Democrats presidents

those stats are indisputable - but make no mistake, GOP and DNC both combine for this spending, they absolutely LOVE to spend trillions more than they have to spend with zero accountability and nobody holds either accountable. Just once I'd like to see a President actually do something about national debt but at this point its kinda irrelevant anyway

might as well run it to 100Trillion ........ only defaulting will get us out of that debt now

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

semantics

when I talk to one of my best friends and we're drinking bourbon by a campfire in the Colorado mountains and he reflects of his time in Iraq and Afghanistan

yes, its war

WW 1 and WW2 involved the while industry

What massive debt? Republicans didnt pass the 5 trillion in new spending in 2022. Republicans AND Democrats passed the 5 trillion in pandemic spending in 2020. Republicans didnt pass Obamacare. All of the major programs driving our debt were created and passed by democrats. 75% of spending is social programs created, expanded, and sustained by democrats.

View attachment 67491948

Look at the % of debt Reagan added.


Looking at the dollar value does not account for growth in the economy or the decrease in value of the dollar

 

[jonny5]

Oh, really is that why people are getting into massive debt?
The US minimum wage is a joke and Americans are paid a paltry sum compared to the same jobs anywhere else.

That and the almost total lack of holidays means I would never even consider taking a job in ther US.
No paid sick leave at all?
No wonder Americans who move to Europe for a job are so surprised by the extra benefits and paid sick leave we take for absolute granted and yet companies still flock to be here and make vast profits.

No, I just said that NOT why people are getting into massive debt. Minimum wage is fine, hardly anyone makes it. Average hourly earnings are over $35. Average PAID holidays are 7.6, and people have plenty of unpaid time off. 80% of workers have access to paid sick leave.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK

 

[Peter]

No, I just said that NOT why people are getting into massive debt. Minimum wage is fine, hardly anyone makes it. Average hourly earnings are over $35. Average PAID holidays are 7.6, and people have plenty of unpaid time off. 80% of workers have access to paid sick leave.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK

You think 7.6 days holiday is good?
I started my job with 26 days with 6 days national holiday on top for 32 days.

That's standard here.

Sick leave is also mandated by law and you can't use holiday as sick leave.
The US is a cruel joke for workers.

 

[jonny5]

WW 1 and WW2 involved the while industry



Look at the % of debt Reagan added.


Looking at the dollar value does not account for growth in the economy or the decrease in value of the dollar

And yet, thats what matters. Adding a large % to a small number is better than adding a small % to a MUCH LARGER number. The debt went up 800bn under Reagan. It went up 10 trillion under Obama, and already 5 trillion under Biden. And its all due to democrat social programs which have nealry tripled in just a decade.

 

[jonny5]

You think 7.6 days holiday is good?
I started my job with 26 days with 6 days national holiday on top for 32 days.

That's standard here.

Sick leave is also mandated by law and you can't use holiday as sick leave.
The US is a cruel joke for workers.

You can just say you have no idea what youre talking about. Paid holidays and sick leave are not why people have record household debt. More paid holidays and sick leave certainly isnt going to help.

 

[MamboDervish]

go back to 1800 if you want to and look at the trillions in debt and how it was added

12 of the last 16 years, Democrat presidents
3 of the top 5 % gainers, Democrats presidents

those stats are indisputable - but make no mistake, GOP and DNC both combine for this spending, they absolutely LOVE to spend trillions more than they have to spend with zero accountability and nobody holds either accountable. Just once I'd like to see a President actually do something about national debt but at this point its kinda irrelevant anyway

might as well run it to 100Trillion ........ only defaulting will get us out of that debt now

Your dodge is noted. Feel free to keep shuffling the goalpost locations as much as you like.
I'm done with you.

 

[Peter]

You can just say you have no idea what youre talking about. Paid holidays and sick leave are not why people have record household debt. More paid holidays and sick leave certainly isnt going to help.

Higher pay for those at the bottom and middle would though.
EU companies manage it why not US companies?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

And yet, thats what matters. Adding a large % to a small number is better than adding a small % to a MUCH LARGER number. The debt went up 800bn under Reagan. It went up 10 trillion under Obama, and already 5 trillion under Biden. And its all due to democrat social programs which have nealry tripled in just a decade.

No it is not

Thirty years ago $30 000 in debt would have been fat harder for me to handle than today. My income is 5 times what it was 30 years ago. Heck I could pay the $ 30 000 debt tomorrow in cash today. I could not do that 30 years ago.

The US economy today is a approximately 5 times the size it was in 1988

Obama added far less debt as a % of GDP than Reagan. Reagan increased it by 184% Obama by around 76%

 

[stealthycat]

Your dodge is noted. Feel free to keep shuffling the goalpost locations as much as you like.
I'm done with you.

a detailed response is a dodge ?

please

 

[jonny5]

Higher pay for those at the bottom and middle would though.
EU companies manage it why not US companies?

We are the most economically succesful country in history because we dont do what EU does. Income isnt the reason people have record household debt, so income isnt the solution.

 

[mike2810]

I know you weren’t talking to me, but I’d say a realistic living wage. Where it doesn’t take two people working two jobs to be able to afford the rent.

There’s not a single state in this union, where a minimum wage worker can afford an apartment on 40 hours a week.

That’s bullshit and it shouldn’t be that way.

Disagree. I suspect it may because of age difference (me being in my 70's)
- What is wrong working two jobs?
- There are more teenagers working minimum wage jobs that live at home that pay no rent and other household costs.
- I suspect what you want done will be a major inflation factor.

back to the OP regarding household debt.
imo, many people live beyond their means. They seem to have to have smart phone, tablets, cable tv, internet, a vehicle they should not by buying. All because they can "borrow" money.

 

[jonny5]

No it is not

Thirty years ago $30 000 in debt would have been fat harder for me to handle than today. My income is 5 times what it was 30 years ago. Heck I could pay the $ 30 000 debt tomorrow in cash today. I could not do that 30 years ago.

The US economy today is a approximately 5 times the size it was in 1988

Obama added far less debt as a % of GDP than Reagan. Reagan increased it by 184% Obama by around 76%

Yeah it is. Adding a large % to a small number is better than adding a small % to a MUCH LARGER number. If you add 500% to your $1000 debt, it is much better than adding 1% to your $34 TRILLION debt. And the President doesnt even matter. The problem is mandatory social spending put in place in the 30s, which both parties have only made worse, but democrats much more so. Which, to get back to the topic, isnt helping with household debt, because govts are taking 20 to 50 percent of every dollar just to pay for those programs, and now interest on that debt, which is nearing a trillion a year.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Yeah it is. Adding a large % to a small number is better than adding a small % to a MUCH LARGER number. If you add 500% to your $1000 debt, it is much better than adding 1% to your $34 TRILLION debt. And the President doesnt even matter. The problem is mandatory social spending put in place in the 30s, which both parties have only made worse, but democrats much more so. Which, to get back to the topic, isnt helping with household debt, because govts are taking 20 to 50 percent of every dollar just to pay for those programs, and now interest on that debt, which is nearing a trillion a year.

No it is not.

It is relative.

I can afford to purchase a $100 000 car tomorrow, based on my income and saving that I have now.

30 years ago, a $10 000 car would not have been affordable. A much larger number is affordable today, while a much smaller number was not affordable back then

 

[Superfly]

Disagree. I suspect it may because of age difference (me being in my 70's)
- What is wrong working two jobs?
- There are more teenagers working minimum wage jobs that live at home that pay no rent and other household costs.
- I suspect what you want done will be a major inflation factor.

back to the OP regarding household debt.
imo, many people live beyond their means. They seem to have to have smart phone, tablets, cable tv, internet, a vehicle they should not by buying. All because they can "borrow" money.

Lots of people work two jobs. Doesn’t mean you should have to, just to keep from being homeless.

Do you know a lot of poor people? Because I do. Most of them aren’t living above their means, but they do have to rely on credit cards from time to time to help with their bills.

Shouldn’t have to do that, either.

 

[jonny5]

No it is not.

It is relative.

I can afford to purchase a $100 000 car tomorrow, based on my income and saving that I have now.

30 years ago, a $10 000 car would not have been affordable. A much larger number is affordable today, while a much smaller number was not affordable back then

Yeah it is. We are dealing with exponential numbers now, which is why real or relative is getting really bad. If only we could go back to Reagan....

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Yeah it is. We are dealing with exponential numbers now, which is why real or relative is getting really bad. If only we could go back to Reagan....

View attachment 67492007
View attachment 67492008

The first chart is ideal, although I would rather see total fed government debt rather than just debt held by the public.

Even then it does show the impact of the 2007-2009 housing crisis and covid 19.

It certainly shows that debt today is far higher than any non wartime period which is concerning

 

[Kushinator]

A lot of that is inflated stock market valuations especially for a few tech companies.

The value of stocks have nothing to do with GDP. Market valuation of assets so not factor into GDP. For example, when a business buys land, it didn't count towards GDP. They need to build something on the land in order for GDP to increase, as the design, materials, and labor are very much part of production.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The value of stocks have nothing to do with GDP. Market valuation of assets so not factor into GDP. For example, when a business buys land, it didn't count towards GDP. They need to build something on the land in order for GDP to increase, as the design, materials, and labor are very much part of production.

Note I was responding to post that was commenting on wealth not GDP, stock values are directly related to wealth

 

[Kushinator]

Compared to overall wealth of the country household debt is way down.

View attachment 67491501

Note I was responding to post that was commenting on wealth not GDP, stock values are directly related to wealth

I know they said wealth, but they also provided a household debt to GDP graph.

We can observe net worth (assets less liabilities) here.

 

[jonny5]

The first chart is ideal, although I would rather see total fed government debt rather than just debt held by the public.

Even then it does show the impact of the 2007-2009 housing crisis and covid 19.

It certainly shows that debt today is far higher than any non wartime period which is concerning

It shows the effect of policies due to the housing crisis and covid 19. Neither was necessary. Much like household debt, the govt needs to get out of it, reduce its bills, and have savings to be able to deal with crisis. Instead we, and households are going the exact opposite way, loading up more debt, more interest, more bills, more dependency and minimal to no savings.