Beyond time to abolish the office of coroner in the United States, as well as providing for standardized, State run Medical Examiner systems

[EMNofSeattle]

North Carolina abolished its last four county coroner offices in 2020. Unfortunately many States, including my original home State of Pennsylvania, continue to hang on to the badly obsolete office of coroner.

CDC - Death Investigation Systems - Coroner/Medical Examiner Laws - Publications by Topic - Public Health Law

Resources about state death investigation systems, coroner systems, and medical examiner systems.

www.cdc.gov

CDC listing of State by State status of coroner vs mixed coroner/medical examiner vs county based medical examiner vs centralized State controlled medical examiner.

Many coroner offices require no training or experience to run for the office and many require no training one in office. In quite a few cases, the Sheriff and coroner are the same person, which sounds like a major conflict of interest, particularly if the Sheriff's Office is full service.

My preferred system is a centralized State Medical Examiner's Office, with branches in each county, but with the Medical Examiner in each county appointed by the Chief Medical Examiner at the State level and reporting to the Chief Medical Examiner. I would also require that Medical Examiner's be licensed physicians in their State and Board Certified in Forensic Pathology. Because it might be difficult to find an individual meeting those qualifications to serve in a smaller county, I would change the requirements to be a licensed physician with substantial experience in Forensic Pathology and require the individual to engage in continuing education in Forensic Pathology.

I prefer a State Medical Examiner system over a county based Medical Examiner system, is that it ensures that the Medical Examiner is free of influence of county based officials, including, particularly, the County Sheriff. They don't have to worry about having to report to individuals who might pressure them to change their findings, as has happened around the country.

Once the State Medical Examiner System is in place, I would immediately abolish all coroner's offices, as well as county based medical examiner offices, which would be absorbed into the State system.

It was stupid that we were using coroners 50 years ago. It is far stupid that we are STILL using coroners today. One of the truly stupid things this country does.

We must end this scourge of coronerism, we need a final solution to the Coroner question, international Coronery is poisoning the sacred blood of our people

 

[BirdinHand]

OMG! I was born in Wilkes Barre! (I was the product of an unwanted pregnancy in the mid 50's,) so my college student mom was shipped up north to Wilkes Barre to have me and put me up for adoption away from Lehigh County "society". I always loved upstate PA!

I have a lot of family that still lives in Wilkes-Barre!

I miss it, but it is SO different from when I grew up. It’s sadly very economically depressed now and desperately in need of revitalization. They’ve really suffered without an industry over the past 50 years or so.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I grew up in Bradford County, PA.

Where.

A recent coroner tried to diddle a 15 year old boy.

A recent district attorney went to jail for using his position to coerce 5 different women into sex.

A former county commissioner went to prison for grand theft.

All in all, a shit show.

Sounds like we need to abolish the obsolete office of District Attorney

 

[BirdinHand]

I grew up in Bradford County, PA.

Where.

A recent coroner tried to diddle a 15 year old boy.

A recent district attorney went to jail for using his position to coerce 5 different women into sex.

A former county commissioner went to prison for grand theft.

All in all, a shit show.

Bradford county PA - that’s really in the sticks!

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Plus counties are far far easier to gerrymander by state parties than state positions

Counties are not gerrymandered, the last time county boundaries were changed in my home state was like 50 years ago and it was to switch one little Village in the mountains to the county where the government service would be closer

 

[medi]

Counties are not gerrymandered, the last time county boundaries were changed in my home state was like 50 years ago and it was to switch one little Village in the mountains to the county where the government service would be closer

I'd suspect that a whole bunch of the framework for these sorts of local coroner type arrangements started way back in the 19th Century. Also, the United States has some seriously independent minded local officials that we don't see in many other nations and when not able to properly study that one point so many local authority domains are hard to understand - - - as I am having difficulty with in this thread. I haven't lived in the U.S. for over four decades. I had no idea you folks in the U.S. had coroners without medical degrees. That idea is hard to grasp. That must have started in the 19th Century when medical training was still not under some sort of institutional control. That is about right, yes? Medical certification started in the U.S. in the 19th Century? Or the 20th Century? I ain't no doctor. But here in Japan them docs are keeping me alive with all this fancy cancer treatment stuff.

AND, on that side road, - - - I used to go up to a city (as I am typing I can't remember the name [but not such a small city]) - - - a city in Pennsylvania with another flight training recruit that lived there and we did street racing with a special Mustang we had built up and made some money doing that illegal street racing. And never got caught. Close calls a few times, but not caught. I also seem to remember that turnpike up there in the very early 70s was horrible. Lots of funny problems with the road surface and one had to drive very carefully and keep a sharp eye out for those holes in that road/highway. Did they ever get that fixed?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I'd suspect that a whole bunch of the framework for these sorts of local coroner type arrangements started way back in the 19th Century. Also, the United States has some seriously independent minded local officials that we don't see in many other nations and when not able to properly study that one point so many local authority domains are hard to understand - - - as I am having difficulty with in this thread. I haven't lived in the U.S. for over four decades. I had no idea you folks in the U.S. had coroners without medical degrees. That idea is hard to grasp. That must have started in the 19th Century when medical training was still not under some sort of institutional control. That is about right, yes? Medical certification started in the U.S. in the 19th Century? Or the 20th Century? I ain't no doctor. But here in Japan them docs are keeping me alive with all this fancy cancer treatment stuff.

AND, on that side road, - - - I used to go up to a city (as I am typing I can't remember the name [but not such a small city]) - - - a city in Pennsylvania with another flight training recruit that lived there and we did street racing with a special Mustang we had built up and made some money doing that illegal street racing. And never got caught. Close calls a few times, but not caught. I also seem to remember that turnpike up there in the very early 70s was horrible. Lots of funny problems with the road surface and one had to drive very carefully and keep a sharp eye out for those holes in that road/highway. Did they ever get that fixed?

Largely the coroner position was related to the law enforcement field. In Washington state which is my home state many smaller counties the sheriff is also the coroner. Due to strong traditions of local government most such positions are elected.

The thing is though, the coroner in counties that have them does not actually do medical examinations, they certify death and the likely cause. I used to live in Kitsap County, Washington for example, being a general law county Kitsap has a coroner who is elected by the citizens, the coroner then hires deputies who are investigators of sort, if the cause of death is obvious (for example someone shoots themselves in the head) then the cause of death is suicide and it’s self explanatory, the coroner then certifies the identity of the corpse and issued a report stating the deceased died of suicide via gunshot.

Now if the cause of death is unknown, then they call a physician from the local hospital to the morgue to conduct an autopsy, then after reviewing the pathologists report them come to a conclusion and certify the death. The coroner in this sense doesn’t actually need to be a doctor.

The other thing that gets lost here, is the vast majority of deaths in America are never medically examined. If a 95 year old guy is found dead in his bed at the nursing home that’s normally always just going to be ruled natural causes unless there’s evidence of foul play, in the example of a suicide by gunshot those are normally also self evident so a pathologist report is never made,

The coroner doesn’t actually have medical duties, their job is to be responsible for issuing the paperwork certifying the death.

Also in Washington if the county is big enough that the coroner anc sheriff are seperate offices then usually the law provides the Coroner becomes the sheriff of the sheriff resigns or dies in the middle of their term until an election can be held

 

[medi]

Largely the coroner position was related to the law enforcement field. In Washington state which is my home state many smaller counties the sheriff is also the coroner. Due to strong traditions of local government most such positions are elected.

The thing is though, the coroner in counties that have them does not actually do medical examinations, they certify death and the likely cause. I used to live in Kitsap County, Washington for example, being a general law county Kitsap has a coroner who is elected by the citizens, the coroner then hires deputies who are investigators of sort, if the cause of death is obvious (for example someone shoots themselves in the head) then the cause of death is suicide and it’s self explanatory, the coroner then certifies the identity of the corpse and issued a report stating the deceased died of suicide via gunshot.

Now if the cause of death is unknown, then they call a physician from the local hospital to the morgue to conduct an autopsy, then after reviewing the pathologists report them come to a conclusion and certify the death. The coroner in this sense doesn’t actually need to be a doctor.

The other thing that gets lost here, is the vast majority of deaths in America are never medically examined. If a 95 year old guy is found dead in his bed at the nursing home that’s normally always just going to be ruled natural causes unless there’s evidence of foul play, in the example of a suicide by gunshot those are normally also self evident so a pathologist report is never made,

The coroner doesn’t actually have medical duties, their job is to be responsible for issuing the paperwork certifying the death.

Also in Washington if the county is big enough that the coroner anc sheriff are seperate offices then usually the law provides the Coroner becomes the sheriff of the sheriff resigns or dies in the middle of their term until an election can be held

I appreciate the effort you put into explaining that situation in that area of the U.S. you are familiar with. I'm only just beginning to realize that this is a complicated topic. So many different laws in so many different locales.

 

[Safiel]

I'd suspect that a whole bunch of the framework for these sorts of local coroner type arrangements started way back in the 19th Century. Also, the United States has some seriously independent minded local officials that we don't see in many other nations and when not able to properly study that one point so many local authority domains are hard to understand - - - as I am having difficulty with in this thread. I haven't lived in the U.S. for over four decades. I had no idea you folks in the U.S. had coroners without medical degrees. That idea is hard to grasp. That must have started in the 19th Century when medical training was still not under some sort of institutional control. That is about right, yes? Medical certification started in the U.S. in the 19th Century? Or the 20th Century? I ain't no doctor. But here in Japan them docs are keeping me alive with all this fancy cancer treatment stuff.

AND, on that side road, - - - I used to go up to a city (as I am typing I can't remember the name [but not such a small city]) - - - a city in Pennsylvania with another flight training recruit that lived there and we did street racing with a special Mustang we had built up and made some money doing that illegal street racing. And never got caught. Close calls a few times, but not caught. I also seem to remember that turnpike up there in the very early 70s was horrible. Lots of funny problems with the road surface and one had to drive very carefully and keep a sharp eye out for those holes in that road/highway. Did they ever get that fixed?

The office of coroner came to the United States from England. William Penn was the first appointed coroner in 1682, after a dead body was found on a river bank. Eventually coroners came to be elected at the county level.

During the period of history from then until the late 1800's when medical science was undeveloped, an untrained non-physician had to do the best he could.

Massachusetts found a better way in 1877, when licensed physicians with forensic experience were appointed as medical examiners, the first state to do so.

It is now 2024. Medical science and genetics and the many modern investigatory tools have rendered the coroner an anachronism.

The path to becoming a Medical Examiner is not easy. A candidate must complete 4 years of college, then 4 years of medical school, which includes a general internship. That is eight years. Then they must take an additional 5 years to become Board Certified in Forensic Pathology. 13 total years. At which point they are qualified to become a Medical Examiner. But, by this point, it is pretty certain they know what they are doing.

A Medical Examiner's office would include personnel who can handle the simple cases where the cause of death is not in doubt. There would be non-physician investigators to handle cases that don't need the direct attention of a Medical Examiner or who would provide assistance to the Medical Examiner.

All in all, a Medical Examiner system is far superior.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The office of coroner came to the United States from England. William Penn was the first appointed coroner in 1682, after a dead body was found on a river bank. Eventually coroners came to be elected at the county level.

During the period of history from then until the late 1800's when medical science was undeveloped, an untrained non-physician had to do the best he could.

Massachusetts found a better way in 1877, when licensed physicians with forensic experience were appointed as medical examiners, the first state to do so.

It is now 2024. Medical science and genetics and the many modern investigatory tools have rendered the coroner an anachronism.

The path to becoming a Medical Examiner is not easy. A candidate must complete 4 years of college, then 4 years of medical school, which includes a general internship. That is eight years. Then they must take an additional 5 years to become Board Certified in Forensic Pathology. 13 total years. At which point they are qualified to become a Medical Examiner. But, by this point, it is pretty certain they know what they are doing.

A Medical Examiner's office would include personnel who can handle the simple cases where the cause of death is not in doubt. There would be non-physician investigators to handle cases that don't need the direct attention of a Medical Examiner or who would provide assistance to the Medical Examiner.

All in all, a Medical Examiner system is far superior.

A medical examiner is just a civil service pathologist, they’re not the same thing as a coroner. In systems with a coroner when forensic pathology is needed (which is not very often) then a doctor or pathologist is hired to do the report.

For being so animated on this issue you seem very ignorant of how it actually works and what the duties of a coroner are.

In the vast majority of cases medical examiners aren’t even medically examining the case anyway, so they’re acting a coroner and their education is unnecessary.

Whether a county has a coroner or medical examiner they aren’t going to medically examine any deaths that occur under care of a physical or deaths self evidently from old age, they’re not going to engage in an autopsy from someone dead of self evident causes, etc and so in reality for most jurisdictions the coroner system works just fine.

I’m sure there’s universities and accrediting bodies lobbying for a change to get jobs for their paying students, but that’s not a real reason to change anything.

 

[Ug make hammer]

North Carolina abolished its last four county coroner offices in 2020. Unfortunately many States, including my original home State of Pennsylvania, continue to hang on to the badly obsolete office of coroner.

CDC - Death Investigation Systems - Coroner/Medical Examiner Laws - Publications by Topic - Public Health Law

Resources about state death investigation systems, coroner systems, and medical examiner systems.

www.cdc.gov

CDC listing of State by State status of coroner vs mixed coroner/medical examiner vs county based medical examiner vs centralized State controlled medical examiner.

Many coroner offices require no training or experience to run for the office and many require no training one in office. In quite a few cases, the Sheriff and coroner are the same person, which sounds like a major conflict of interest, particularly if the Sheriff's Office is full service.

My preferred system is a centralized State Medical Examiner's Office, with branches in each county, but with the Medical Examiner in each county appointed by the Chief Medical Examiner at the State level and reporting to the Chief Medical Examiner. I would also require that Medical Examiner's be licensed physicians in their State and Board Certified in Forensic Pathology. Because it might be difficult to find an individual meeting those qualifications to serve in a smaller county, I would change the requirements to be a licensed physician with substantial experience in Forensic Pathology and require the individual to engage in continuing education in Forensic Pathology.

I prefer a State Medical Examiner system over a county based Medical Examiner system, is that it ensures that the Medical Examiner is free of influence of county based officials, including, particularly, the County Sheriff. They don't have to worry about having to report to individuals who might pressure them to change their findings, as has happened around the country.

Once the State Medical Examiner System is in place, I would immediately abolish all coroner's offices, as well as county based medical examiner offices, which would be absorbed into the State system.

It was stupid that we were using coroners 50 years ago. It is far stupid that we are STILL using coroners today. One of the truly stupid things this country does.

I agree with you. Local government is too corrupt and incompetent to make the vital distinctions between natural death, suicide, and murder.

I'm not a huge fan of elected police, judges or prosecutors either.

 

[Ug make hammer]

A medical examiner is just a civil service pathologist, they’re not the same thing as a coroner. In systems with a coroner when forensic pathology is needed (which is not very often) then a doctor or pathologist is hired to do the report.

For being so animated on this issue you seem very ignorant of how it actually works and what the duties of a coroner are.

In the vast majority of cases medical examiners aren’t even medically examining the case anyway, so they’re acting a coroner and their education is unnecessary.

Whether a county has a coroner or medical examiner they aren’t going to medically examine any deaths that occur under care of a physical or deaths self evidently from old age, they’re not going to engage in an autopsy from someone dead of self evident causes, etc and so in reality for most jurisdictions the coroner system works just fine.

How would you know? Their mistakes get buried.

I’m sure there’s universities and accrediting bodies lobbying for a change to get jobs for their paying students, but that’s not a real reason to change anything.

You oppose expertise, because of what it would cost. Unsurprising.

 

[Safiel]

I agree with you. Local government is too corrupt and incompetent to make the vital distinctions between natural death, suicide, and murder.

I'm not a huge fan of elected police, judges or prosecutors either.

Sheriffs in particular. The Constitutional Sheriff movement has led to Sheriffs who are determined to dictate what the law is, instead of just enforcing the law and letting the courts decide what the law is. Judges should be appointed via merit selection. And prosecutors/public defenders should be appointed by the courts to fixed terms. But elected Sheriffs/Police in particular has become a very bad thing.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

But elected Sheriffs/Police in particular has become a very bad thing.

Electing government officials is what democracy is all about.

 

[Ug make hammer]

Electing government officials is what democracy is all about.

Surrendering constitutional rights to democracy is actually a bad thing. Would you like if SCOTUS was elected, and unqualified populists settled disputes that are often between (other) elected officials and the people?

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Surrendering constitutional rights to democracy is actually a bad thing.

True. But I don't think electing a sheriff results in the surrender of any Constitutional rights.

Does electing governors and presidents result in the surrender of Constitutional rights?

Would you like if SCOTUS was elected, and unqualified populists settled disputes that are often between (other) elected officials and the people?

I would not like Supreme Court positions to be elected. I also dislike populism. It is a weak form of fascism (which I also dislike).

 

[Ug make hammer]

True. But I don't think electing a sheriff results in the surrender of any Constitutional rights.

Look up sheriff Arpaio. The judiciary sacked him at least once, but the voters just put him back. The voters only gave up on the POPULAR sheriff when his legal bills got too much for them.

Does electing governors and presidents result in the surrender of Constitutional rights?

No, but they're the other branch of government. The judiciary is supposed to be independent and impartial, which it never will be if its elected.

I would not like Supreme Court positions to be elected. I also dislike populism. It is a weak form of fascism (which I also dislike).

So we agree on judges, and all that's necessary is for you to admit that sheriffs regularly intrude on the role of prosecutors and judges. They use their discretion on who to arrest and charge, so it's no surprise that they go easy on local or state government officials when they're caught driving drunk ... or even killing someone.

To return to the thread subject, I think coroners/medical-examiners should be more aligned with the judiciary, than with elected local government. There is far too much potential for them to misrepresent murders committed by a majority member against a minority member. White coroners representing the white majority are the obvious form of populist corruption, but it could apply to any unpopular minority.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Look up sheriff Arpaio. The judiciary sacked him at least once, but the voters just put him back. The voters only gave up on the POPULAR sheriff when his legal bills got too much for them.

Were anyone's rights violated?

No, but they're the other branch of government. The judiciary is supposed to be independent and impartial, which it never will be if its elected.

Law enforcement are in the executive branch with presidents and governors, not in the judicial branch with judges.

So we agree on judges,

I think so.

and all that's necessary is for you to admit that sheriffs regularly intrude on the role of prosecutors and judges.

I don't see any evidence of that.

I also don't see any evidence of people's rights being violated because sheriffs are elected.

They use their discretion on who to arrest and charge, so it's no surprise that they go easy on local or state government officials when they're caught driving drunk ... or even killing someone.

Law enforcement always uses discretion. When a police officer lets you off with a warning instead of writing a speeding ticket, that's an exercise of discretion.

Prosecutors use discretion as well, whenever they decide to not prosecute someone who has committed an offense.

 

[The Mark]

No thanks.

I prefer local government as much as possible.

Perhaps some kind of standard requirement of training and the like, to ensure a minimum level of competence.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Perhaps some kind of standard requirement of training and the like, to ensure a minimum level of competence.

There is, you have to be 18 and eligible to hold public office

 

[EMNofSeattle]

To return to the thread subject, I think coroners/medical-examiners should be more aligned with the judiciary, than with elected local government. There is far too much potential for them to misrepresent murders committed by a majority member against a minority member. White coroners representing the white majority are the obvious form of populist corruption, but it could apply to any unpopular minority.

Huh? Lol

First off it’s well documented blacks murder whites far often than the other way around, and secondly I really doubt you can point to any example of this actually happening. Coroners rulings to not carry legal liability.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I agree with you. Local government is too corrupt and incompetent to make the vital distinctions between natural death, suicide, and murder.

I'm not a huge fan of elected police, judges or prosecutors either.

Leftist hates democracy, what a shock

 

[BirdinHand]

Perhaps some kind of standard requirement of training and the like, to ensure a minimum level of competence.

Take it up with your state - NJ already requires them to be physicians. And they are appointed here by our county government. Not elected.

 

[The Mark]

There is, you have to be 18 and eligible to hold public office

That doesn't sound like enough of a requirement to ensure they are capable of doing the job.