Abbas: I know that its not a Jewish state

[NO1]

Abbas: Palestinians will cut all ties with Israel, US - The Jerusalem Post

...
They want me to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, he remarked. They made this demand seven or eight years ago. When a state wants to change its name, it should go to the United Nations. It's none of my business. I know that it's not a Jewish state. I also know there are 1.9 million Arabs and another 1.5 million Russians who are Christians and Muslims. Only a small number of the Ethiopians are Jews.

Since 1948 the Arabs refuse to accept the Jewish state, that's the core of the conflict.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Abbas: Palestinians will cut all ties with Israel, US - The Jerusalem Post

Since 1948 the Arabs refuse to accept the Jewish state, that's the core of the conflict.

The guy got his PhD in holocaust denial. He "knows" all different sorts of things that have no connection to reality. It's sort of his thing.

But he should also know that if he continues to be the rejectionist he his reign will end and he will deliver absolutely nothing to the Palestinians.

He is a failed leader with no legacy, other than caretaking the Palestinian National Movement while it sat in a corner and died, so he actually has nothing to lose.

 

[justabubba]

The guy got his PhD in holocaust denial. He "knows" all different sorts of things that have no connection to reality. It's sort of his thing.

But he should also know that if he continues to be the rejectionist he his reign will end and he will deliver absolutely nothing to the Palestinians.

He is a failed leader with no legacy, other than caretaking the Palestinian National Movement while it sat in a corner and died, so he actually has nothing to lose.

excellent point about the absence of legacies. look at how well it turned out for our native Americans, who capitulated to lop-sided treaties so that another people could take their lands

 

[CJ 2.0]

excellent point about the absence of legacies. look at how well it turned out for our native Americans, who capitulated to lop-sided treaties so that another people could take their lands

Sorry, you're saying the Jews shouldn't cede any of Judea and Samaria to the Arabs?

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with that position. The Arabs may have come as colonialists of imperial masters, but they have roots there so we should find some way of accommodating everybody.

 

[NO1]

The guy got his PhD in holocaust denial. He "knows" all different sorts of things that have no connection to reality. It's sort of his thing.

But he should also know that if he continues to be the rejectionist he his reign will end and he will deliver absolutely nothing to the Palestinians.

He is a failed leader with no legacy, other than caretaking the Palestinian National Movement while it sat in a corner and died, so he actually has nothing to lose.

Right. Why he should care when the millions are kicking in? He better of playing the victim...

 

[oneworld2]

Abbas: Palestinians will cut all ties with Israel, US - The Jerusalem Post

Since 1948 the Arabs refuse to accept the Jewish state, that's the core of the conflict.

It's , imo , just another use of something else by the Israeli side to try to scupper any chance of a resolution of the conflict .

If the Palestinians want to recognize the state of Israel without being bullied into a description that is unnecessary then I don't see it as an issue.

Those who are pushing this are imo not interested in any serious moves to try to resolve the conflict and are using this none issue as the means to justify it

 

[Fledermaus]

It's , imo , just another use of something else by the Israeli side to try to scupper any chance of a resolution of the conflict .

If the Palestinians want to recognize the state of Israel without being bullied into a description that is unnecessary then I don't see it as an issue.

Those who are pushing this are imo not interested in any serious moves to try to resolve the conflict and are using this none issue as the means to justify it

Interesting....

What does the Hamas charter say in regards to the area known as Israel?

 

[oneworld2]

The guy got his PhD in holocaust denial. He "knows" all different sorts of things that have no connection to reality. It's sort of his thing.

But he should also know that if he continues to be the rejectionist he his reign will end and he will deliver absolutely nothing to the Palestinians.

He is a failed leader with no legacy, other than caretaking the Palestinian National Movement while it sat in a corner and died, so he actually has nothing to lose.

His reign should have ended when Hamas won the most seats in the PNC but it was the self proclaimed lovers of democracy that went full throttle to make sure he and his PA calloborators stayed in power, at least in the place they really want to take territory from.

I don't like Abbas either but he is only one of many rejectionists that cover both camps. His comments about the demographic make up of Israel , however , are valid points imo

 

[oneworld2]

excellent point about the absence of legacies. look at how well it turned out for our native Americans, who capitulated to lop-sided treaties so that another people could take their lands

I would only add that even the treaties made with the native Americans never afaik demanded that they recognize the land they had lost to the colonial settlers as a legitimate state for white Christians

 

[Fledermaus]

I would only add that even the treaties made with the native Americans never afaik demanded that they recognize the land they had lost to the colonial settlers as a legitimate state for white Christians

Soviet style Whataboutism engaged.

FULL DIVERSION AHEAD!

 

[oneworld2]

Sorry, you're saying the Jews shouldn't cede any of Judea and Samaria to the Arabs?

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with that position. The Arabs may have come as colonialists of imperial masters, but they have roots there so we should find some way of accommodating everybody.

The Arabs may have come as " colonialists " ? The irony meter exploded and a reply went out of the window with it. Beggars belief!

 

[oneworld2]

Sorry, you're saying the Jews shouldn't cede any of Judea and Samaria to the Arabs?

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with that position. The Arabs may have come as colonialists of imperial masters, but they have roots there so we should find some way of accommodating everybody.

The only fair " accommodation" is the two state solution based on the 67 lines that creates a VIABLE Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state. The settlement blocks in the WB are illegal and those residing in them returned to Israeli territory and then they should be handed to Palestinians to live in. To offset this the Palestinians should be convinced into accepting that the right of return to Israel isn't going to happen and accept financial compensation instead

 

[CJ 2.0]

It's , imo , just another use of something else by the Israeli side to try to scupper any chance of a resolution of the conflict .

If the Palestinians want to recognize the state of Israel without being bullied into a description that is unnecessary then I don't see it as an issue.

Those who are pushing this are imo not interested in any serious moves to try to resolve the conflict and are using this none issue as the means to justify it

It is fundamentally serious. The Palestinian identity is built around denying Jews their state. For the Jews to make commitments for peace it is necessary for the Palestinians to abandon that element of their identity.

That Abbas is and always has been dead set against it tells you all you need to know about how willing the Palestinians actually are to end their conflict against the Jews.

 

[CJ 2.0]

The Arabs may have come as " colonialists " ? The irony meter exploded and a reply went out of the window with it. Beggars belief!

Just playing in the sandbox you build chief.

It always seems to cause you problems when I apply your framework properly. Seems to consistently fluster you and you see it as “irony”, which is exactly right, but you misjudge where it is coming from.

But yes, it is ironic that your anti colonialist ideology supports colonialism, just like it is ironic that your pro “justice” position involves ethnic cleansing and your “pro-peace” stance facilitates war.

But that is the anti-Israel position in a nutshell. A whole bunch of silly inconsistencies build upon developing a special framework for the Palestinians that doesn’t apply to others.

 

[CJ 2.0]

The only fair " accommodation" is the two state solution based on the 67 lines that creates a VIABLE Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state. The settlement blocks in the WB are illegal and those residing in them returned to Israeli territory and then they should be handed to Palestinians to live in. To offset this the Palestinians should be convinced into accepting that the right of return to Israel isn't going to happen and accept financial compensation instead

So a forcible uprooting of families against their will by the hundreds of thousands?

You really are hardcore into justice, aren’t you? Cause that’s the kind of justicy justice that in any other context would get you on a no fly list...

 

[oneworld2]

It is fundamentally serious. The Palestinian identity is built around denying Jews their state. For the Jews to make commitments for peace it is necessary for the Palestinians to abandon that element of their identity.

That Abbas is and always has been dead set against it tells you all you need to know about how willing the Palestinians actually are to end their conflict against the Jews.

And one could argue the Israeli identity is built around prizing a state from Arab lands. What is important is to see both sides have a state of their own , regardless of what or how the view the state of the other. What you claim to be " necessary " is imo just an unnecessary buffer to resolving the conflict. I don't recall it being demanded in peace treaties with other formerly hostile Arab states and yet peace between them has succeeded

 

[oneworld2]

Just playing in the sandbox you build chief.

It always seems to cause you problems when I apply your framework properly. Seems to consistently fluster you and you see it as “irony”, which is exactly right, but you misjudge where it is coming from.

But yes, it is ironic that your anti colonialist ideology supports colonialism, just like it is ironic that your pro “justice” position involves ethnic cleansing and your “pro-peace” stance facilitates war.

But that is the anti-Israel position in a nutshell. A whole bunch of silly inconsistencies build upon developing a special framework for the Palestinians that doesn’t apply to others.

Nope you are ridiculously trying to class the Arabs living in the region as " colonialists " and having the recently arrived Europeans as those making the territorial accommodations. I don't support settler colonialist projects anywhere and never have so on that I am consistent. The rest is just innaccurate misrepresentations aimed at inducing an emotional response and will be ignored

 

[CJ 2.0]

And one could argue the Israeli identity is built around prizing a state from Arab lands. What is important is to see both sides have a state of their own , regardless of what or how the view the state of the other. What you claim to be " necessary " is imo just an unnecessary buffer to resolving the conflict. I don't recall it being demanded in peace treaties with other formerly hostile Arab states and yet peace between them has succeeded

Except it obviously isn’t. The biggest problem with Israeli identity is that it has ignored the Arabs entirely. The national movement had no interest in the Arabs and was never about the Arabs in any way.

The difference between other arab countries and the Palestinians is that the entire Palestinian identity is built around Israel’s destruction and the elimination of Jewish sovereignty whether through violent liquidation or the “right of return”. That is absolutely unique and if the Palestinians actually wanted peace without their phoney right of return as a demographic backdoor to eliminating Jewish sovereignty in Israel this would be a very easy, costless “give”. That they are kicking and screaming about it so much shows you how real the costs of it are because it does, in fact, cut to the core of their identity and objectives.

 

[oneworld2]

So a forcible uprooting of families against their will by the hundreds of thousands?

You really are hardcore into justice, aren’t you? Cause that’s the kind of justicy justice that in any other context would get you on a no fly list...

You are happy to deny people the right to return to land , homes and lives they were illegally stopped from enjoying but wish to see those illegally residing in the territory of others as somehow the same thing.

We should judge what is legitimate and what is illegal from the laws governing such things and the laws are on my side , so yes the question of justice is only being flouted by yourself. Application of the law is justice so the only one contradicting it is yourself where the injust is just based on religious/ethnic denomination

 

[CJ 2.0]

Nope you are ridiculously trying to class the Arabs living in the region as " colonialists " and having the recently arrived Europeans as those making the territorial accommodations. I don't support settler colonialist projects anywhere and never have so on that I am consistent. The rest is just innaccurate misrepresentations aimed at inducing an emotional response and will be ignored

They were colonialists. Brought in by various conquering imperialists. You may not like it but it is the reality. Mostly everyone is, after all, if you go back far enough.

As for distortions, one side of this conflict has widespread support for ethnic cleansing. The other does not. And yet the inverted morality at play that allows liberal progressives to pretend the “pro” position is moral is so riddled with nonsense inconsistency that they see their own ironic positions as something weird going on externally. But that ain’t it, chief. The Palestinian position is and always has been fundamentally immoral and from the beginning the tools used to achieve their fundamental objectives have also been abjectly immoral.

Yet the moral preening from their side borders on insufferable, as they rage about the “justice” of forcibly transferring half a million people from their homes, the injustice of recognizing Jewish sovereignty in any part of Israel, or the difficulties created when the Jews try to protect themselves from suicide bombers.

 

[CJ 2.0]

You are happy to deny people the right to return to land , homes and lives they were illegally stopped from enjoying but wish to see those illegally residing in the territory of others as somehow the same thing.

We should judge what is legitimate and what is illegal from the laws governing such things and the laws are on my side , so yes the question of justice is only being flouted by yourself. Application of the law is justice so the only one contradicting it is yourself where the injust is just based on religious/ethnic denomination

Not really. Morality is not derived from law. The examples through even the past 100 years are too numerous to mention.

 

[oneworld2]

Except it obviously isn’t. The biggest problem with Israeli identity is that it has ignored the Arabs entirely. The national movement had no interest in the Arabs and was never about the Arabs in any way.

The difference between other arab countries and the Palestinians is that the entire Palestinian identity is built around Israel’s destruction and the elimination of Jewish sovereignty whether through violent liquidation or the “right of return”. That is absolutely unique and if the Palestinians actually wanted peace without their phoney right of return as a demographic backdoor to eliminating Jewish sovereignty in Israel this would be a very easy, costless “give”. That they are kicking and screaming about it so much shows you how real the costs of it are because it does, in fact, cut to the core of their identity and objectives.

If it wasn't demanded of the states of Jordan and Egypt it shouldn't be demanded of the state of Palestine. That's just consistent application of principles so no wonder you object wanting a special treatment meted out to Palestinian Arabs only.

 

[oneworld2]

Not really. Morality is not derived from law. The examples through even the past 100 years are too numerous to mention.

I never mentioned morality, I mentioned the law. And seeing as how you think it's ok for an entire people to be violated everyday of their lives , suppressed and dominated so as to accommodate people illegally residing in their territory you are not in a position to try to give out advice on morality

 

[CJ 2.0]

If it wasn't demanded of the states of Jordan and Egypt it shouldn't be demanded of the state of Palestine. That's just consistent application of principles so no wonder you object wanting a special treatment meted out to Palestinian Arabs only.

Not true at all and I don’t really see what your objection is. If they enter into a peace deal where they get one state and the Jews get the other, why can’t they recognize that the Jews have their own state and that they as a people don’t have a claim on it?

Would be costless if they actually meant that as part of any deal. They could also recognize China is Chinese for example, at absolutely zero cost to them since they don’t purport to claim a part of China as their own.

But we know they don’t mean it and deep down would not be giving up Palestinian claims to Israel as any peace deal, so Israel would end up trading its security for nothing.

You guys really don’t believe in ending the conflict, do you? If recognizing that the other state is someone else’s and you have no claim to it is a bridge too far, why even bother pretending you are interested in peace?

 

[CJ 2.0]

I never mentioned morality, I mentioned the law. And seeing as how you think it's ok for an entire people to be violated everyday of their lives , suppressed and dominated so as to accommodate people illegally residing in their territory you are not in a position to try to give out advice on morality

So you acknowledge your position is immoral?

Good to know.


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