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On the trinity

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Simpletruther

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I am a reformed Baptist, and pretty much agree with the athanasian creed on the trinity.

But I do think there is widespread misunderstanding of the doctrine.

The doctrine contains an incomprehensible mystery that defies logic. It concerns me when so many trins claim it is perfectly logical, they either do not understand the statement of the doctrine or they do not understand logic.

The trinity contradicts classic identity theory.


Most trins hold that each person possesses all the qualities of the divine being.

Yet according to identity, a quality is considered to be any truth about something.

And the truth that the divine Being exists as (or more simply is) three persons poses an inexplicable logical problem according to identity.

If each person has all the qualities of the divine Being, then Each person would necessarily (again according to identity) be the other persons, which confounds them (they become indistinguishable).

This is a divine mystery that cannot be apprehended intellectually.


And of course another way to say this, is if each person had all qualities in common they would have numerical identity, and indistinguishable according to identity.

Identity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
Simpletruther said:
I am a reformed Baptist, and pretty much agree with the athanasian creed on the trinity.

But I do think there is widespread misunderstanding of the doctrine.

The doctrine contains an incomprehensible mystery that defies logic. It concerns me when so many trins claim it is perfectly logical, they either do not understand the statement of the doctrine or they do not understand logic.

The trinity contradicts classic identity theory.


Most trins hold that each person possesses all the qualities of the divine being.

Yet according to identity, a quality is considered to be any truth about something.

And the truth that the divine Being exists as (or more simply is) three persons poses an inexplicable logical problem according to identity.

If each person has all the qualities of the divine Being, then Each person would necessarily (again according to identity) be the other persons, which confounds them (they become indistinguishable).

This is a divine mystery that cannot be apprehended intellectually.


And of course another way to say this, is if each person had all qualities in common they would have numerical identity, and indistinguishable according to identity.

Identity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Click to expand...



It’s been said that “If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul.” That saying, more or less, comes from “The Trinity teaches us that God is beyond all human comprehension.”, being a most common explanation throw-away response when Christians can’t come up with either a logical or biblical answer to such questions as you raise. And that the Trinity being 3 diff persons explains that Jesus, being in the human form representation of God, is not omniscient as explains Jesus saying, in Mark 13:32, NIV: "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.". That answers the question “If Jesus is God, shouldn’t He know?”

Anywho, the following is a pretty good explanation of the whole thing. It is put rather simply stated in it’s parts, but like with so many things, many simple parts put together still become complex:

Understanding What the Trinity is: Father, Son, Holy Spirit

I think your delving into identity goes nowhere. I believe there are matters that are, at least presently, beyond human comprehension. Just like there are colors in the spectrum that exist which we are not capable of seeing. So, I suppose if you believe in a Christian god, you can accept with faith in something you can’t comprehend or fathom. I mean, consider that death is a complete end with no consciousness or any “thereafter”. Fathom that and describe what it is being nothing more than a part of carbon matter energy of the universe in Einstein E=mc2. I think it easier to fathom having faith in God that is of a Trinity that can't be comprehended, and all that such faith entails.
 
bluesmoke said:
It’s been said that “If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul.” That saying, more or less, comes from “The Trinity teaches us that God is beyond all human comprehension.”, being a most common explanation throw-away response when Christians can’t come up with either a logical or biblical answer to such questions as you raise. And that the Trinity being 3 diff persons explains that Jesus, being in the human form representation of God, is not omniscient as explains Jesus saying, in Mark 13:32, NIV: "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.". That answers the question “If Jesus is God, shouldn’t He know?”

Anywho, the following is a pretty good explanation of the whole thing. It is put rather simply stated in it’s parts, but like with so many things, many simple parts put together still become complex:

Understanding What the Trinity is: Father, Son, Holy Spirit

I think your delving into identity goes nowhere. I believe there are matters that are, at least presently, beyond human comprehension. Just like there are colors in the spectrum that exist which we are not capable of seeing. So, I suppose if you believe in a Christian god, you can accept with faith in something you can’t comprehend or fathom. I mean, consider that death is a complete end with no consciousness or any “thereafter”. Fathom that and describe what it is being nothing more than a part of carbon matter energy of the universe in Einstein E=mc2. I think it easier to fathom having faith in God that is of a Trinity that can't be comprehended, and all that such faith entails.
Click to expand...

He purpose of bringing in identity is to refute wrong headed trins that claim the trinity is perfectly logical.

Clearly it is not, as defined by identity. Now if we define logic as some kind of spiritual understand that cannot be explained wih words, ok then it is logical in that sense.

I would disagree that the trinity is necessary to be a Christian. Yes that is by far the majority view, But I can’t find that claim in the Bible.
 
Simpletruther said:
He purpose of bringing in identity is to refute wrong headed trins that claim the trinity is perfectly logical.

Clearly it is not, as defined by identity. Now if we define logic as some kind of spiritual understand that cannot be explained wih words, ok then it is logical in that sense.

I would disagree that the trinity is necessary to be a Christian. Yes that is by far the majority view, But I can’t find that claim in the Bible.
Click to expand...

There is no such claim nor is there any such doctrine in the Bible...
 
Simpletruther said:
He purpose of bringing in identity is to refute wrong headed trins that claim the trinity is perfectly logical.

Clearly it is not, as defined by identity. Now if we define logic as some kind of spiritual understand that cannot be explained wih words, ok then it is logical in that sense.

I would disagree that the trinity is necessary to be a Christian. Yes that is by far the majority view, But I can’t find that claim in the Bible.
Click to expand...



I agree with your take on the identity argument. It's just that there is enough already to refute that the Trinity is not perfectly logical. However, there is no need to see perfect logic in the understanding of the Trinity to accept both the division of persons and the unity of all three as a part of or, as the great majority of Christians believe, central in Christian faith. Putting you in a rather small minority that you believe such is not necessary to be a Christian (though I don't have substantial evidence, like polls, on that point). But the very definition of faith is on your side. All you have to do is believe, honestly in your heart, that Christ is your savior, and your in.
 
bluesmoke said:
I agree with your take on the identity argument. It's just that there is enough already to refute that the Trinity is not perfectly logical. However, there is no need to see perfect logic in the understanding of the Trinity to accept both the division of persons and the unity of all three as a part of or, as the great majority of Christians believe, central in Christian faith. Putting you in a rather small minority that you believe such is not necessary to be a Christian (though I don't have substantial evidence, like polls, on that point). But the very definition of faith is on your side. All you have to do is believe, honestly in your heart, that Christ is your savior, and your in.
Click to expand...
Yes the last sentence there is good enough. I see the trinity as meat doctrine, one has to study and draw out of scripture. I think most Christians unnecessarily draw a dividing line there.
 
bluesmoke said:
I agree with your take on the identity argument. It's just that there is enough already to refute that the Trinity is not perfectly logical. However, there is no need to see perfect logic in the understanding of the Trinity to accept both the division of persons and the unity of all three as a part of or, as the great majority of Christians believe, central in Christian faith. Putting you in a rather small minority that you believe such is not necessary to be a Christian (though I don't have substantial evidence, like polls, on that point). But the very definition of faith is on your side. All you have to do is believe, honestly in your heart, that Christ is your savior, and your in.
Click to expand...

Not really, there's more to it, as verse 36 of John chapter 3 points out..."The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life;"..."exercises" means that actions are required, not merely believing in one's heart...
 
Simpletruther said:
Yes the last sentence there is good enough. I see the trinity as meat doctrine, one has to study and draw out of scripture. I think most Christians unnecessarily draw a dividing line there.
Click to expand...



"the last sentence there is good enough"

My personal take on "believe Christ is your savior and your in", though, is the belief that Christ died for our sins ends it all. He died for us. Whether Muslim, Hindu or non-believer. That's the end of it. We don't have to run around professing ourselves. We've already been saved. That's my own personal take/interpretation of "the deal", though I'm not a "believer". Whether you want or not, you've been saved.
 
Elvira said:
Not really, there's more to it, as verse 36 of John chapter 3 points out..."The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life;"..."exercises" means that actions are required, not merely believing in one's heart...
Click to expand...



Really. Action belie what you say in heart. Not in heart, not in action. Not in action, not in heart. So, lets get into "good works" now.
 
bluesmoke said:
"the last sentence there is good enough"

My personal take on "believe Christ is your savior and your in", though, is the belief that Christ died for our sins ends it all. He died for us. Whether Muslim, Hindu or non-believer. That's the end of it. We don't have to run around professing ourselves. We've already been saved. That's my own personal take/interpretation of "the deal", though I'm not a "believer". Whether you want or not, you've been saved.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is communicated in scripture. God uses means to his ends, and it is through faith men are saved.
 
Simpletruther said:
I don't think that is communicated in scripture. God uses means to his ends, and it is through faith men are saved.
Click to expand...

Yep, faith brings one to action...to tell others about the saving power of Jesus Christ...
 
Simpletruther said:
I don't think that is communicated in scripture. God uses means to his ends, and it is through faith men are saved.
Click to expand...

That depends on who is speaking. James says faith alone is not enough and Paul says otherwise.
 
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Napoleon said:
That depends on who is speaking. James says faith alone is enough and Paul says otherwise.
Click to expand...

James made just the opposite claim...

"faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:17
 
Elvira said:
James made just the opposite claim...

"faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:17
Click to expand...

Yes, sorry. Didn’t proof read before submitting. James made the case for works while Paul made the case to the Christians of Rome that faith alone was enough. Interestingly, these were two different contemporaneous interpretations of the same story of Abraham. So it would seem that this debate has been out there from day one.
 
Simpletruther said:
I don't think that is communicated in scripture. God uses means to his ends, and it is through faith men are saved.
Click to expand...



There is a lot not in scripture or that is given contradictory. Like that believers are justified, or declared righteous before God, solely by faith yet that faith and works are as inseparable. My personal belief is that given a just and righteous God, those who follow the teachings of Christ, regardless of knowing so or having “faith”, will be judged rightly. Christ is everybody’s savior and your acts reflect the soundness of heart by which you are judged by God. Otherwise, I can’t accept that God is right and just, at all. By my take, I’m giving God a better look that way. You can be an AH like Paul, persecuting others, for even most of your life, then, genuinely, find God and all is OK. But be not a believer yet tend to the poor all your life…
 
bluesmoke said:
There is a lot not in scripture or that is given contradictory. Like that believers are justified, or declared righteous before God, solely by faith yet that faith and works are as inseparable. My personal belief is that given a just and righteous God, those who follow the teachings of Christ, regardless of knowing so or having “faith”, will be judged rightly. Christ is everybody’s savior and your acts reflect the soundness of heart by which you are judged by God. Otherwise, I can’t accept that God is right and just, at all. By my take, I’m giving God a better look that way. You can be an AH like Paul, persecuting others, for even most of your life, then, genuinely, find God and all is OK. But be not a believer yet tend to the poor all your life…
Click to expand...
Why do yo even think Christ is a real person, and not made up?
 
bluesmoke said:
There is a lot not in scripture or that is given contradictory. Like that believers are justified, or declared righteous before God, solely by faith yet that faith and works are as inseparable. My personal belief is that given a just and righteous God, those who follow the teachings of Christ, regardless of knowing so or having “faith”, will be judged rightly. Christ is everybody’s savior and your acts reflect the soundness of heart by which you are judged by God. Otherwise, I can’t accept that God is right and just, at all. By my take, I’m giving God a better look that way. You can be an AH like Paul, persecuting others, for even most of your life, then, genuinely, find God and all is OK. But be not a believer yet tend to the poor all your life…
Click to expand...

There are no contradictions, only people who fail to consider ALL scriptures, in order to get the true meaning...just the same as faith without works is dead, so too is works without faith dead...faith and works go hand in hand, one without the other is worthless...

"recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law." Galatians 2:16

"Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." Hebrews 11:6
 
Simpletruther said:
I am a reformed Baptist, and pretty much agree with the athanasian creed on the trinity.

But I do think there is widespread misunderstanding of the doctrine.

The doctrine contains an incomprehensible mystery that defies logic. It concerns me when so many trins claim it is perfectly logical, they either do not understand the statement of the doctrine or they do not understand logic.

The trinity contradicts classic identity theory.


Most trins hold that each person possesses all the qualities of the divine being.

Yet according to identity, a quality is considered to be any truth about something.

And the truth that the divine Being exists as (or more simply is) three persons poses an inexplicable logical problem according to identity.

If each person has all the qualities of the divine Being, then Each person would necessarily (again according to identity) be the other persons, which confounds them (they become indistinguishable).

This is a divine mystery that cannot be apprehended intellectually.


And of course another way to say this, is if each person had all qualities in common they would have numerical identity, and indistinguishable according to identity.

Identity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Click to expand...

I think Trinitarians try to explain it in ways that would be more understandable to those who question it.

But you're right - it is a mystery! It is spiritual, and should be contemplated as such.


The whole point to bear in mind is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One.
 
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Simpletruther said:
Why do yo even think Christ is a real person, and not made up?
Click to expand...



Whether or not Christ, brother of James and son of Mary and Joseph, was a real person is beside the point. Though I get your point. There is no fact in Christ being a god. Which is not required to be a god by definition of faith. Even belief does not require proof or fact, but without which is an unjustified, by fact, belief. All faith is belief. Not all belief is faith. Belief does not require proof. Faith cannot rely on proof and still be called faith.
 
bluesmoke said:
Whether or not Christ, brother of James and son of Mary and Joseph, was a real person is beside the point.
Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree because this is the entire point--that He was real, that He was crucified, and that He rose from the dead.
 
Elvira said:
There are no contradictions, only people who fail to consider ALL scriptures, in order to get the true meaning...just the same as faith without works is dead, so too is works without faith dead...faith and works go hand in hand, one without the other is worthless...

"recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law." Galatians 2:16

"Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." Hebrews 11:6
Click to expand...



I get the scripture part, as the poster pointed out. I get that by what you post one must have faith, not works alone. The contradiction is whether faith alone will get you there. Even interpretation of Galatians 2:16 is that faith is exercised by works. God has means and those means are works and faith is not an island w/o means. I'm just proposing God is not just and right if he refuses someone of good works only because they have no faith. Whether it's a lack of faith through refusal or ignorance. I don't accept that some AH would be accepted by this so-called righteous and just god because at some later point in life accepted God whereas I or others devoted themselves to others without said faith. That does not compute.
 
bluesmoke said:
Whether or not Christ, brother of James and son of Mary and Joseph, was a real person is beside the point. Though I get your point. There is no fact in Christ being a god. Which is not required to be a god by definition of faith. Even belief does not require proof or fact, but without which is an unjustified, by fact, belief. All faith is belief. Not all belief is faith. Belief does not require proof. Faith cannot rely on proof and still be called faith.
Click to expand...

I am just wondering why this topic even interests you if you don’t believe it.
 
bluesmoke said:
I get the scripture part, as the poster pointed out. I get that by what you post one must have faith, not works alone. The contradiction is whether faith alone will get you there. Even interpretation of Galatians 2:16 is that faith is exercised by works. God has means and those means are works and faith is not an island w/o means. I'm just proposing God is not just and right if he refuses someone of good works only because they have no faith. Whether it's a lack of faith through refusal or ignorance. I don't accept that some AH would be accepted by this so-called righteous and just god because at some later point in life accepted God whereas I or others devoted themselves to others without said faith. That does not compute.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point...by considering ALL scriptures, not just cherry picking one or two, you can understand the true meaning...only then can you get the full picture...it most certainly does compute because without faith in God/love for God, no human can do what is righteous all the time, under any and all circumstances...in other words, no person can remain faithful without faith, and that is what God requires in order to be declared righteous in His eyes...

“Without faith it is impossible to please him well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.”​ Hebrews 11:6
 
nota bene said:
I'll have to disagree because this is the entire point--that He was real, that He was crucified, and that He rose from the dead.
Click to expand...



I mean that regardless of whether or not Christ was ever a real person, with which I do not necessarily disagree, that my point to do with a just and righteous god is not dependent on his existence or not. A deist, for instance, does not believe in the Trinity nor the deity of Christ. But they do believe in following the moral teachings of Christ. It just defies logic and does not compute with me that a just and righteous god would deny a deist or someone that follows the moral teachings of Christ yet does not believe in God.
 
bluesmoke said:
I mean that regardless of whether or not Christ was ever a real person, with which I do not necessarily disagree, that my point to do with a just and righteous god is not dependent on his existence or not. A deist, for instance, does not believe in the Trinity nor the deity of Christ. But they do believe in following the moral teachings of Christ. It just defies logic and does not compute with me that a just and righteous god would deny a deist or someone that follows the moral teachings of Christ yet does not believe in God.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "would not deny"? I think I may agree with you here but am not quite sure what you mean.
 
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