[W:146]**The Qur'an in chronological order.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

stevecanuck said:

I disbelieve in demons every bit as much as I do deities. However, if such really did exist, I fail to see how Mohamed would know the difference if a demon were to present itself as Gabriel.

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Don't forget - Mohammad did not believe the messenger was from God. Whether it was a demon or not, the fact that he didn't believe it means that "red flags were up!"

He had to be convinced by his cousin who allegedly knew the Jewish/Christian Scriptures (which in itself puts this cousin's credibility into question). You'd think that he'd know enough to see the differences between the Bible's Gabriel from this so-called Gabriel that appeared to Mohammad.

Mind you, a truly loving God would just swat such a critter and eliminate the centuries of warfare and millions of deaths that resulted.

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Irrelevant! FOCUS on the issue.

You're the one who's been posting about the Quran - which now makes me confused as to your reason for doing so - that is, if you don't believe deities exist!

Anyway,

Your topic is not about a "truly loving God!"



Care to explain please, why you're studying the Quran and dedicating so much energy with this thread if you don't believe in deities?

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

tosca1 said:

Don't forget - Mohammad did not believe the messenger was from God. Whether it was a demon or not, the fact that he didn't believe it means that "red flags were up!"

He had to be convinced by his cousin who allegedly knew the Jewish/Christian Scriptures (which in itself puts this cousin's credibility into question). You'd think that he'd know enough to see the differences between the Bible's Gabriel from this so-called Gabriel that appeared to Mohammad.







Irrelevant! FOCUS on the issue.

You're the one who's been posting about the Quran - which now makes me confused as to your reason for doing so - that is, if you don't believe deities exist!

Anyway,

Your topic is not about a "truly loving God!"



Care to explain please, why you're studying the Quran and dedicating so much energy with this thread if you don't believe in deities?

Click to expand...

I believe that the history of the 21st century will be written in terms of how successful Islamic militancy will be in taking control of the world. We will be dealing with Islamism for the foreseeable future, so I'm studying their playbook (the Qur'an).

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Random afterthought:

As I read the Meccans surahs, it occurred to me that none of them were event-driven. Historical context, other than that they came from the 12 years in Mecca, played no part in determining the importance of the order in which they were revealed or in the nature of their message. The opposite is the case with the Medinan surahs.

Well, there is one thing. Early mentions of heaven talk only of 'gardens of bliss'. Eventually Mohamed tried to spice things up by adding that attendants with 'big lustrous eyes' await the faithful.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Rewrite of thoughts about the Meccan surahs:


- Mohamed's entire conversion tactic over 12 years consisted of issuing endless warnings to the pagans from a book that meant nothing to them about a god in whom they neither historically believed nor showed any inclination to newly embrace.

- No major difference between Judaism and Islam has been defined other than that the Qur'an is a reaffirmation of the Old Testament and that Mohamed has been chosen by God to lead the faithful on the path to Heaven. It is understood that Muslims, Jews, and Christians believe in the god of Abraham, but that Jews and Christians ("the people of the book") have perverted the sacred texts.

- Although the Qur'an frequently refers to biblical stories, only Old Testament stories are said to be true. Without specifically mentioning the New Testament, any suggestion that Jesus is the son of God is treated as "inventing a lie concerning God".

- The comparison between monotheistic belief (Islam) and unbelief (everything else), which determines one's worth as a person and resulting assignment to either Heaven or Hell, is without doubt the foundation on which the Meccan surahs were built. If I were to sum up all 86 surahs in just one verse, it would be 29:68 (shown above),"And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?" Given the unrelenting disparagement of unbelievers in the Meccan surahs alone, it should come as no surprise if devout Muslims (which is not to say all Muslims) look at non-Muslims with distrust or hostility.

- None of the Meccan surahs were event-driven. Historical context, other than that they came from the 12 years in Mecca, is unimportant in terms of message to the order in which they were revealed. The opposite is the case with the Medinan surahs.

- There is not yet any indication that fighting "in the cause of God" is to become a major part of Islam. In compilation order, commands to fight appear in the second surah, which gives the incorrect impression that they were there from the beginning.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

As I reread what I've written so far, I find myself coming to realizations that otherwise weren't obvious. For example, when I first read the Qur'an, I did so in compilation order. I remember being gob-smacked at the hatred directed toward unbelievers right out of the chute. I didn't realize it at first, but what I was reading was actually hatred that had been simmering and growing for 12 frustrating years. If the Qur'an were read in compilation order, this fire and brimstone onslaught at the beginning of the book could easily take the unprepared reader aback, especially if a variation of "In the beginning, God created ..." were expected. Instead, we get this sort of thing directed at unbelievers:

2:7 - "God has set a seal on their hearts and their hearing".
2:9 - "They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe".
2:10 - "In their hearts is a disease".
2:13 - Unbelievers are accused of calling believers fools.
2:14 - Unbelievers are called hypocrites.
2:15 - "God mocks them and gives them time to continue blindly in their transgressions".
2:16 - "They have traded guidance for error".
2:18 - Unbelievers are called "deaf, dumb, and blind".
2:24 - "then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for unbelievers".
2:39 - The Meccan believe-or-burn theme continues throughout until we are finally reminded yet again that, "Those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire".

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

The re-write continues with more detail, and hopefully, insight:

Surah 2, the longest at 286 verses, is the first from Medina, although the first 39 verses vary so little from the Meccan surahs that I would not be surprised if they were in fact the last from that city. Not only is the wording reminiscent of the first 86 surahs, but no indication is given that these verses are directed at anyone other than the pagans of Mecca: (examples given in previous post up to verse 39).

It is not until verse 40, which starts, "O children of Israel", that tells us Mohamed's target audience is now the Jews of Yathrib. In verses 40-88 God reminds the Jews of their history, their covenant with Him (from the time of Moses), the favors He granted them, the times He interceded on their behalf, and of their many transgressions, such as worshipping the golden calf (51), perverting the scriptures (79), and slaying His prophets (87 - This accusation is made several times although the supposedly slain prophets are never named and nothing in biblical accounts support this claim). Verses 86 and 88 summarize God's displeasure with the Jews thus, "These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped", and "God has cursed them for their unbelief".

A peculiarity in the 40-88 series is that verb conjugations create the impression that the Jews of Yathrib are being admonished for the sins of their ancestors. The subject of these verses is Moses, yet the Qur'an's use of second-person conjugations make it appear as though the Jews of Yathrib have been inserted into events of the past. For example, verse 51 says, "when you worshiped the golden calf, you were unjust". This mix of past and present is repeated in several verses such as 60 and 61 in which the former states, "each tribe knew it's drinking place", while the latter says, "And when you said: O Moses...". Perhaps this inconsistency created confusion among the Jews, and even concern given that God's criticism seems to be aimed directly at them, because a short time later Mohamed issued verse 141 in an apparent attempt to clear up an uncertainty, "This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did".

Another peculiarity in this series is verse 62, which not only seems out of context and a non sequitur, but is contrary to everything we have read so far about unbelievers. It says, "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve". If this includes, for example, Christians who believe Jesus to be the son of God, it directly contradicts all previous and future verses that claim "telling a lie concerning God" is a ticket to Hell.

A clarification (some might say abrogation) of this verse appears later in 3:199, "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation [Qur'an] to you [Mohamed], and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account". This indicates that only Jews and Christians who accept the Qur'an and Islam have no need to fear, as opposed to "the People of the Book" in general as verse 2:62 could be understood to mean.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

While the chronology goes unnoticed by most it is very important.
When the religion was packaged and sold, it was the 9th century, not the 7th as is claimed.
The Qur'an was put together by compilers, not authors, and could have been illiterate children.
It was arranged from longest Sura to shortest. Completely mixing the content.

Now the important parts are not even known by most muslims.

We need the separation of the Meccan, and the medina Qur'an.
We also need to know of abbrogations.

a person unaware, can cover to cover the book, and most of what he learned is wrong.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Grand Mal said:

Is there point here, a reason you're doing this?

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He hates Islam and doesn’t trust Muslims

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

stevecanuck said:

Random afterthought:

As I read the Meccans surahs, it occurred to me that none of them were event-driven. Historical context, other than that they came from the 12 years in Mecca, played no part in determining the importance of the order in which they were revealed or in the nature of their message. The opposite is the case with the Medinan surahs.

Well, there is one thing. Early mentions of heaven talk only of 'gardens of bliss'. Eventually Mohamed tried to spice things up by adding that attendants with 'big lustrous eyes' await the faithful.

Click to expand...

The problem with reading just the Qur'an is it is so poorly written, and no information is given, you must read the sunnah alongside to understand it.
a slick talking cleric can change any verse from a battle to a prayer, to a Tuna fish sandwich.
and they are virtually all event driven.

I always said you can learn nothing about Islam by reading the Qur'an.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

SheWolf said:

He hates Islam and doesn’t trust Muslims

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any rational person who learns about Islam will hate it,
and ironicaly, not trust Muslims. (Taquyyia and kitman)

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

tosca1 said:

You know, there's been an argument floating around that proves Mohammad had an encounter with a demon instead.

I'll check it out some more.

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Screw you. You’re totally bigoted towards Muslims, and it’s no surprise you’re a Trump supporter

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

stevecanuck said:

I disbelieve in demons every bit as much as I do deities. However, if such really did exist, I fail to see how Mohamed would know the difference if a demon were to present itself as Gabriel. That seems like the sort of thing a demon would do. Mind you, a truly loving God would just swat such a critter and eliminate the centuries of warfare and millions of deaths that resulted.

Click to expand...

Do you believe in god at all or are you an atheist

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Yasureoktoo said:

any rational person who learns about Islam will hate it,
and ironicaly, not trust Muslims. (Taquyyia and kitman)

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First, people like you twist the definition of Taquyyia and what it is. Modern Muslims don’t know what is, and have never heard the phrase until talking to a western person accusing them of lying about Islam and it’s teachings.

That’s how crazy it is to talk to people like you

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Yasureoktoo said:

The problem with reading just the Qur'an is it is so poorly written, and no information is given, you must read the sunnah alongside to understand it.
a slick talking cleric can change any verse from a battle to a prayer, to a Tuna fish sandwich.
and they are virtually all event driven.

I always said you can learn nothing about Islam by reading the Qur'an.

Click to expand...

I agree that reading the sunnah and hadiths would help. Maybe after this pass I'll go back and do that.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

SheWolf said:

Screw you. You’re totally bigoted towards Muslims, and it’s no surprise you’re a Trump supporter

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Refer to posts #45 and 46.

Lol. Even Mohammad initially did not believe the angel came from God!
He had to be talked into it by his cousin (who wasn't even present in that encounter)!


Everything hinges on the identity of that angel who appeared to Mohammad.


From the contrasting description of how the angel Gabriel is always gentle with people he appeared to in the Bile -
the angel of Mohammad was more like a lunatic!


Now none of God’s creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed—Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest." (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 106)

He terrorized Mohammad that Mohammad wanted to kill himself!
Tell me, does that sound like a messenger from the Abrahamic God?

Definitely, it couldn't have been Gabriel of the Bible!

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

SheWolf said:

Do you believe in god at all or are you an atheist

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Atheist and Frisbeetarian. I believe that when you die your soul flies onto the roof and gets stuck there.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

stevecanuck said:

I agree that reading the sunnah and hadiths would help. Maybe after this pass I'll go back and do that.

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If you wanted to spend the time, and really wanted to learn without interference.
Get an accredited Qur'an, The top 5 are Noble, Achmed ali, Yousaf Ali, Pithcal, shakir.
Look in the index and arrange it in chronological order.
Then get the Sirat Rasuall Allah, Islams first documentation, and the only bio of Muhammed written within 200 years of his lifetime.
It is online.
Then read both books together, eventually a timeline will form, and give you a completely different outlook on Islam.
This can also be done with Taburi. But harder to find.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Yasureoktoo said:

If you wanted to spend the time, and really wanted to learn without interference.
Get an accredited Qur'an, The top 5 are Noble, Achmed ali, Yousaf Ali, Pithcal, shakir.
Look in the index and arrange it in chronological order.
Then get the Sirat Rasuall Allah, Islams first documentation, and the only bio of Muhammed written within 200 years of his lifetime.
It is online.
Then read both books together, eventually a timeline will form, and give you a completely different outlook on Islam.
This can also be done with Taburi. But harder to find.

Click to expand...

Better or worse?

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

SheWolf said:

First, people like you twist the definition of Taquyyia and what it is. Modern Muslims don’t know what is, and have never heard the phrase until talking to a western person accusing them of lying about Islam and it’s teachings.

That’s how crazy it is to talk to people like you

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No need to do any twisting around.
Any rational person will point at the very basic: Who is that so-called angel who appeared to Mohammad?

One thing we know definitely - based on comparison with the Old Testament Bible - it couldn't have been from the Abrahamic God!


So.....please answer me. If it isn't from the Abrahamic God - then, who sent that lunatic to Mohammad?

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

SheWolf said:

First, people like you twist the definition of Taquyyia and what it is. Modern Muslims don’t know what is, and have never heard the phrase until talking to a western person accusing them of lying about Islam and it’s teachings.

That’s how crazy it is to talk to people like you

Click to expand...

You have to realize most muslims know little about the religion itself. Only what they are told by their clerics and peers.
Virtually none read about Muhammed, remember him, the main character.
Untill a few days ago, Al Bagdadi could tell you all about him.
The terror groups are based on Muhammeds life and teachings.

Islam is a time bomb, a sleeper cell.

The people are already brainwashed into what they think is Islam, whatever that may be,
But they also have orders to obey their cleric as though they were speaking to Muhammed himself.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Elvira said:

Better or worse?

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I don't know,
are you a member of ISIS.

Muhammed was one sick puppy. And "The perfect man"

You have in the messenger a beautiful pattern of conduct to follow. (Qur'an)

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Yasureoktoo said:

I don't know,
are you a member of ISIS.

Muhammed was one sick puppy. And "The perfect man"

You have in the messenger a beautiful pattern of conduct to follow. (Qur'an)

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lol...no...I know very little about them personally, or Muslims, either for that matter...the message is about Jesus Christ and how he gave his life for us...it goes back to the text that says life is in the blood...the basis for atonement is in the blood...Leviticus 17:11...

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

SheWolf said:

First, people like you twist the definition of Taquyyia and what it is. Modern Muslims don’t know what is, and have never heard the phrase until talking to a western person accusing them of lying about Islam and it’s teachings.

That’s how crazy it is to talk to people like you

Click to expand...

a good example is Kitman, (Lying by omission), used in all the bridge building meetings

5:32...For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being , it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all.

Unknowlingly the person omits the reason a person can be killed, and one is for spreading corruption, or mischief in the land.
Basically kill him for whatever reason you like.

and the very next verse tells you what to do with them.
Crucify is an option.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Elvira said:

lol...no...I know very little about them personally, or Muslims, either for that matter...the message is about Jesus Christ and how he gave his life for us...it goes back to the text that says life is in the blood...the basis for atonement is in the blood...Leviticus 17:11...

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Muslims are human beings, and victims also.
Forced into the religion from birth
Forced to pray 5 times a day. ( If you pray to your car, 5 times a day, you will brainwash yourself.

Islam is a documented political ideology, under the guise of a religion.
and few people know much about it.

Re: The Qur'an in chronological order.

Yasureoktoo said:

Muslims are human beings, and victims also.
Forced into the religion from birth
Forced to pray 5 times a day. ( If you pray to your car, 5 times a day, you will brainwash yourself.

Islam is a documented political ideology, under the guise of a religion.
and few people know much about it.

Click to expand...

Well, some people accuse Jehovah's Witnesses, I am one, of being brainwashed, too...I say there are worse things than having a clean brain, free of the evil thoughts in the world...lol...