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Incoherency of ree will

Simpletruther

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Many free will proponents believe conflicting doctrines about the will.

What i have often encountered is the following:

1. Freedom means our choices are not predetermined by an outside force.

2, our choices are indeterminate.

3. For every choice we “could have” chosen differently in the same circumstance.

4. Our choices are non arbitrary.



These beliefs are incompatible logically.

If a choice could have been different, that logically,means there is no reason that it wasn’t different, it just happened to go that way.

If we could replay that moment of choice (reverse time) , the person might chose differently under the exact same preconditions. And there would be no reason for the different outcomes. That reveals an unmistsksble randomn/arbitrary element in the mix.


And of course, the old objection that if God knows the future, then our choices can only be what he knows they will be, is just another line of proof of the incoherency of free will doctrine. It is illogical and contradictory.
 
Hmm... were you free or not free to post that nonsense?
 
Interesting to see all the CARM people fleeing here.
 
Many free will proponents believe conflicting doctrines about the will.

What i have often encountered is the following:

1. Freedom means our choices are not predetermined by an outside force.

2, our choices are indeterminate.

3. For every choice we “could have” chosen differently in the same circumstance.

4. Our choices are non arbitrary.



These beliefs are incompatible logically.

If a choice could have been different, that logically,means there is no reason that it wasn’t different, it just happened to go that way.

If we could replay that moment of choice (reverse time) , the person might chose differently under the exact same preconditions. And there would be no reason for the different outcomes. That reveals an unmistsksble randomn/arbitrary element in the mix.


And of course, the old objection that if God knows the future, then our choices can only be what he knows they will be, is just another line of proof of the incoherency of free will doctrine. It is illogical and contradictory.

Um... no.
 
Hmm... were you free or not free to post that nonsense?
Depends on how one defines free. I am certainly free to post what I want(given obvious parameters) . I am not free however to “do otherwise”.

Nor am I free to choose my “wants”.

There certainly is no shortage of rude posting habits on these boards I have discovered since being here.
 
I think what you're trying to say is human decisions are based on two things: genetics and life experiences. And if you could quantify those genetics and life experiences it is possible to predict with 100% accuracy how you would respond to every question and situation. and therefore we do not actually have any free will.
 

Your premise was wrong, and you are making a determination just to cause the “conflicting doctrine.”

There are plenty of choices one can make that are arbitrary with others not so much, there are plenty of choices that are whimsical without the same reason or consideration we may apply to other choices no matter how much freedom we have. Freedom or the absence of freedom is still a construct, and may lend itself to what we tell ourselves is the range of possible choices we can make. Consequences from those decisions may or may not be the only determination on how far we take our freedom to make a choice (or not.)

“Free will” is an entirely different term than freedom. Freedom has ranges from absolute freedom to varying degrees all the way down to very little freedom. Free will on the other hand is by definition the ability to act without any constraint of need to make the choice or fate because of making the choice. The absolute nature of that distinction means act at one’s own discretion away from any sort of construct.

Those constructs can show themselves as anything from social standards, to law, to various ideological influences suggesting some limitation that by either themselves or in any combination of them change “free will” to something in the range of freedom to absence of freedom.

Theological concepts by there vary nature and realized impact are constructs, thus removing any sense of free will going so far to suggest free will is inherently a problem because most mainstream monotheistic religions suggest fate.
 
Your premise was wrong, and you are making a determination just to cause the “conflicting doctrine.”

There are plenty of choices one can make that are arbitrary with others not so much, there are plenty of choices that are whimsical without the same reason or consideration we may apply to other choices no matter how much freedom we have. Freedom or the absence of freedom is still a construct, and may lend itself to what we tell ourselves is the range of possible choices we can make. Consequences from those decisions may or may not be the only determination on how far we take our freedom to make a choice (or not.)

“Free will” is an entirely different term than freedom. Freedom has ranges from absolute freedom to varying degrees all the way down to very little freedom. Free will on the other hand is by definition the ability to act without any constraint of need to make the choice or fate because of making the choice. The absolute nature of that distinction means act at one’s own discretion away from any sort of construct.

Those constructs can show themselves as anything from social standards, to law, to various ideological influences suggesting some limitation that by either themselves or in any combination of them change “free will” to something in the range of freedom to absence of freedom.

Theological concepts by there vary nature and realized impact are constructs, thus removing any sense of free will going so far to suggest free will is inherently a problem because most mainstream monotheistic religions suggest fate.
The logic of the OP shows that, if all choices could be otherwise, then there is always at least a partially random/arbitrary component to every choice.
 
I don't think you understand what human free will involves...God’s Word explains that our freedom has boundaries and that we must observe the limits Jehovah appropriately places on us...limitations put on people’s freedom can protect them, just as God's laws were made to protect us...we can choose to obey them for our own benefit, or not...as an example...we may exercise our freedom of choice to drive to a distant city....would we feel safe traveling on highways where there were no traffic laws, where everyone was free to decide how fast or on which side of the road to drive...obviously not...limits are necessary in order for all to enjoy the blessings of true freedom...
 
The logic of the OP shows that, if all choices could be otherwise, then there is always at least a partially random/arbitrary component to every choice.

Incorrect, perhaps most choices can have an arbitrary component but there are absolute choices based on reason and accountability. You claiming they have a random component is projection.
 
Depends on how one defines free. I am certainly free to post what I want(given obvious parameters) . I am not free however to “do otherwise”.

Nor am I free to choose my “wants”.

There certainly is no shortage of rude posting habits on these boards I have discovered since being here.

You were certainly free not to post at all - as well as free to post something different.
 
Incorrect, perhaps most choices can have an arbitrary component but there are absolute choices based on reason and accountability. You claiming they have a random component is projection.

Not at all. If s choice has no random component, then the choice couldn’t “have been otherwise” and the choice was determined by the reasons.
 
Depends on how one defines free. I am certainly free to post what I want(given obvious parameters) . I am not free however to “do otherwise”.

Nor am I free to choose my “wants”.

There certainly is no shortage of rude posting habits on these boards I have discovered since being here.

Who does the most rude postings? Believers or Atheists?
 
Hmm... were you free or not free to post that nonsense?

If god knows all past present and future, then no. For god to know the future that means all of our actions are preordained and we have no free will just the illusion of it.

Only if god does not know the future would we have free will, as the future would not be preordained
 
I don't think you understand what human free will involves...God’s Word explains that our freedom has boundaries and that we must observe the limits Jehovah appropriately places on us...limitations put on people’s freedom can protect them, just as God's laws were made to protect us...we can choose to obey them for our own benefit, or not...as an example...we may exercise our freedom of choice to drive to a distant city....would we feel safe traveling on highways where there were no traffic laws, where everyone was free to decide how fast or on which side of the road to drive...obviously not...limits are necessary in order for all to enjoy the blessings of true freedom...

You've driven in Europe and San Francisco then :)
You are talking about free moral agency. The right to choose good or evil. What about those who never have heard of Elohim, Jehovah or Jesus? What about their choices? Or, are they just left out and subject to Hell for the eternities? Will they get a chance to make a full choice of good or evil in the hereafter? Or only the 144,000 who believed the world would end in 1890?
 
If god knows all past present and future, then no. For god to know the future that means all of our actions are preordained and we have no free will just the illusion of it.

Only if god does not know the future would we have free will, as the future would not be preordained

I don't agree. Just because he knows the beginning to the end and everything in between, that doesn't mean he influenced my decisions one way or another. If God were to constantly interfere in our lives and taking away our choice to choose, then you would be correct. But, He doesn't. It's why people die and go through horrific events. It's because we aren't predestined (You used the wrong word, preordained). Preordained means we covenanted with God prior to coming to the earth meaning we lived as spirit children in Heaven with Heavenly Father. We made our covenants and were ordained for certain work on the earth when we came and entered the bodies we posses. However, because we aren't predestined, we still can choose to follow our covenants we made in our preordainations or not. Moses could have not become the Prophet to lead Israel out of Egypt and another would have to have been called. Someone who was to be a prophet. Maybe Isaiah would have come to the earth sooner and taken Moses place.
 
If god knows all past present and future, then no. For god to know the future that means all of our actions are preordained and we have no free will just the illusion of it.

Only if god does not know the future would we have free will, as the future would not be preordained

For one to know that a coin flipped multiple times will average about the same number of heads and tails does not preordain the next coin toss result. Knowing that the sun will likely rise tomorrow does not deminish my free will to decide whether or not to take the day off.

Perhaps the Serenity Prayer says it best:

The Serenity Prayer is the common name for a prayer written by the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr. The best-known form is: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

Wikipedia
 
For one to know that a coin flipped multiple times will average about the same number of heads and tails does not preordain the next coin toss result. Knowing that the sun will likely rise tomorrow does not deminish my free will to decide whether or not to take the day off.

Perhaps the Serenity Prayer says it best:



Wikipedia

If he knows each and every decision that you will make even before you were born, did you have the free will to make those decisions or were they set in stone?
 
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