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Thread: Defining Islamophobia

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    Defining Islamophobia

    With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

    Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

    Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.
    Fear of Different, ie: Ignorance.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper View Post
    Fear of Different,
    Right, if it's that simple, then it's just a subset of overall xenophobia.

    ie: Ignorance.
    Again correct. However, all of my criticisms of Islam come from the opposite point of view. My fear of Islam is based on knowledge.
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    Right, if it's that simple, then it's just a subset of overall xenophobia.



    Again correct. However, all of my criticisms of Islam come from the opposite point of view. My fear of Islam is based on knowledge.
    Yeah Right! Of course it is. Which is the basis of any islamophobics reasoning.

    Does your criticisms of christianity also cause fear of christianity?


    Care to give an example of your knowledge that causes fear.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Yeah Right! Of course it is. Which is the basis of any islamophobics reasoning.

    Does your criticisms of christianity also cause fear of christianity?


    Care to give an example of your knowledge that causes fear.
    Well, that was amusing. You've already indicated that you won't believe a word I'm saying, so why should I bother?

    To answer my own question, I'm going to bother simply so you won't get to pretend that I can't. I expect nothing in return from you but the usual 2 responses; either gratuitous denial or some sort of deflection (Oh yeah. But, but.....THE BIBLE). Oh, that's right, you've already gone there. What a surprise.

    Let's start not with fear of Islam, but disgust. I think this should be a no-brainer that we all can agree on, but I'm still surprised that the auto-deniers can find a way not to.

    Verse 4:34 says that God made men superior to women and that women are therefore expected to be subservient. Should a women dare to disobey, she should be admonished, made to sleep alone (I'm sure many who were forced into a marriage would welcome that), and beaten. (The Arabic reads, "wa idrubu hunna", which means, "and beat them" word for word). I think that is barbaric and has no place in our culture. I also think I should be able to say so without being accused of being some sort of Nazi.

    The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

    Are we good so far?
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Criticising a religion, (Islam), is not Islamophobia. Prejudice, hatred, or bigotry directed against Muslims in general, is. It's pretty simple.
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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    Criticising a religion, (Islam), is not Islamophobia. Prejudice, hatred, or bigotry directed against Muslims in general, is. It's pretty simple.
    That's exactly what I would say. However, that's apparently not what those who don't want to hear any criticism say.
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

    Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.
    Thats factually not needed to define Islamophobia. Legitimate criticism of islam or Christianity etc doesnt really exist because legit is subjective. and thats common sense 101

    people are individuals, subject perceptions of tenets are just that and dont apply to the religion as a whole or every individual.

    Islamophobia is slang and not based on typical "phobia" but IMO it has a very easy definition like racism or bigotry against religion. If you judge a person negatively simply based on their religion and that religion is islam then that is the slang version of Islamophobia. If you claim your subjective opinioin of some tenets mean the religion as a whole is negative then that fits too. it would be like condemning me, a Christians for the Christians that hate gays or how women are lesser etc etc. THe whole religion is NOT represented like that and every individual practicing does not see things that way. . . . . again . . common sense 101
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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

    Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.
    I think it's quite simple really. All belief systems, cultures, and societies are free game for criticism so long as that criticism is based on fact, and not primitive impulses. I generally give the person the benefit of the doubt and assume the former, rather than the latter, until that person's behavior or lapses in logic gives me a reason to beleive otherwise. Where I'm certain I see genuine bigotry, is when I see someone make the mistake of talking about any large group of people as if they were an archtype. To put it simply, I can be very picky when it comes to whether or not a person critisizes Islam, Saudi Arabia . . . or Muslims. I am, to varying degrees, critical of all religions, but I hope I never have to catch myself talking about Christians as opposed to talking about Christianity

    That's my bar.

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    Re: Defining Islamophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    Well, that was amusing. You've already indicated that you won't believe a word I'm saying, so why should I bother?

    To answer my own question, I'm going to bother simply so you won't get to pretend that I can't. I expect nothing in return from you but the usual 2 responses; either gratuitous denial or some sort of deflection (Oh yeah. But, but.....THE BIBLE). Oh, that's right, you've already gone there. What a surprise.

    Let's start not with fear of Islam, but disgust. I think this should be a no-brainer that we all can agree on, but I'm still surprised that the auto-deniers can find a way not to.

    Verse 4:34 says that God made men superior to women and that women are therefore expected to be subservient. Should a women dare to disobey, she should be admonished, made to sleep alone (I'm sure many who were forced into a marriage would welcome that), and beaten. (The Arabic reads, "wa idrubu hunna", which means, "and beat them" word for word). I think that is barbaric and has no place in our culture. I also think I should be able to say so without being accused of being some sort of Nazi.

    The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

    Are we good so far?
    It is not a matter of not believing what you say. In fact i do agree religion is quite disgusting. But where we disagree is that the islamic religion should be treated any different from the christian.

    Your pointing to a verse about subservience of woman show no difference as the christian religion has the same problem.

    I am an atheist and a rather militant one. I care for none of the abrahamic religions.

    And it is not that i think you cannot answer, I have no problem demonstrating just how ridiculous religious books are so why should you have a problem doing so.

    Nor is it a deflection to point out that christian religion is just as disgusting as the islamic one.

    The point here is that we can look at both the bible and the koran and find something disgusting and ridiculous about it. But those books are not the belief. For that we need to look at the person as an individual and what they say and do with their faith.

    And i have met both people who use their religion either islam or christian to spread hatred and try to control others with it and those who have love and compassion for others with it.

    It is phobic to pick one out and say they are wrong.

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