Defining Islamophobia

With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.

stevecanuck said:

With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.

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Fear of Different, ie: Ignorance.

Casper said:

Fear of Different,

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Right, if it's that simple, then it's just a subset of overall xenophobia.

ie: Ignorance.

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Again correct. However, all of my criticisms of Islam come from the opposite point of view. My fear of Islam is based on knowledge.

stevecanuck said:

Right, if it's that simple, then it's just a subset of overall xenophobia.



Again correct. However, all of my criticisms of Islam come from the opposite point of view. My fear of Islam is based on knowledge.

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Yeah Right! Of course it is. Which is the basis of any islamophobics reasoning.

Does your criticisms of christianity also cause fear of christianity?


Care to give an example of your knowledge that causes fear.

soylentgreen said:

Yeah Right! Of course it is. Which is the basis of any islamophobics reasoning.

Does your criticisms of christianity also cause fear of christianity?


Care to give an example of your knowledge that causes fear.

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Well, that was amusing. You've already indicated that you won't believe a word I'm saying, so why should I bother?

To answer my own question, I'm going to bother simply so you won't get to pretend that I can't. I expect nothing in return from you but the usual 2 responses; either gratuitous denial or some sort of deflection (Oh yeah. But, but.....THE BIBLE). Oh, that's right, you've already gone there. What a surprise.

Let's start not with fear of Islam, but disgust. I think this should be a no-brainer that we all can agree on, but I'm still surprised that the auto-deniers can find a way not to.

Verse 4:34 says that God made men superior to women and that women are therefore expected to be subservient. Should a women dare to disobey, she should be admonished, made to sleep alone (I'm sure many who were forced into a marriage would welcome that), and beaten. (The Arabic reads, "wa idrubu hunna", which means, "and beat them" word for word). I think that is barbaric and has no place in our culture. I also think I should be able to say so without being accused of being some sort of Nazi.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Are we good so far?

Criticising a religion, (Islam), is not Islamophobia. Prejudice, hatred, or bigotry directed against Muslims in general, is. It's pretty simple.

Serenity said:

Criticising a religion, (Islam), is not Islamophobia. Prejudice, hatred, or bigotry directed against Muslims in general, is. It's pretty simple.

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That's exactly what I would say. However, that's apparently not what those who don't want to hear any criticism say.

stevecanuck said:

With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.

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Thats factually not needed to define Islamophobia. Legitimate criticism of islam or Christianity etc doesnt really exist because legit is subjective. and thats common sense 101

people are individuals, subject perceptions of tenets are just that and dont apply to the religion as a whole or every individual.

Islamophobia is slang and not based on typical "phobia" but IMO it has a very easy definition like racism or bigotry against religion. If you judge a person negatively simply based on their religion and that religion is islam then that is the slang version of Islamophobia. If you claim your subjective opinioin of some tenets mean the religion as a whole is negative then that fits too. it would be like condemning me, a Christians for the Christians that hate gays or how women are lesser etc etc. THe whole religion is NOT represented like that and every individual practicing does not see things that way. . . . . again . . common sense 101

stevecanuck said:

With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.

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I think it's quite simple really. All belief systems, cultures, and societies are free game for criticism so long as that criticism is based on fact, and not primitive impulses. I generally give the person the benefit of the doubt and assume the former, rather than the latter, until that person's behavior or lapses in logic gives me a reason to beleive otherwise. Where I'm certain I see genuine bigotry, is when I see someone make the mistake of talking about any large group of people as if they were an archtype. To put it simply, I can be very picky when it comes to whether or not a person critisizes Islam, Saudi Arabia . . . or Muslims. I am, to varying degrees, critical of all religions, but I hope I never have to catch myself talking about Christians as opposed to talking about Christianity

That's my bar.

stevecanuck said:

Well, that was amusing. You've already indicated that you won't believe a word I'm saying, so why should I bother?

To answer my own question, I'm going to bother simply so you won't get to pretend that I can't. I expect nothing in return from you but the usual 2 responses; either gratuitous denial or some sort of deflection (Oh yeah. But, but.....THE BIBLE). Oh, that's right, you've already gone there. What a surprise.

Let's start not with fear of Islam, but disgust. I think this should be a no-brainer that we all can agree on, but I'm still surprised that the auto-deniers can find a way not to.

Verse 4:34 says that God made men superior to women and that women are therefore expected to be subservient. Should a women dare to disobey, she should be admonished, made to sleep alone (I'm sure many who were forced into a marriage would welcome that), and beaten. (The Arabic reads, "wa idrubu hunna", which means, "and beat them" word for word). I think that is barbaric and has no place in our culture. I also think I should be able to say so without being accused of being some sort of Nazi.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Are we good so far?

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It is not a matter of not believing what you say. In fact i do agree religion is quite disgusting. But where we disagree is that the islamic religion should be treated any different from the christian.

Your pointing to a verse about subservience of woman show no difference as the christian religion has the same problem.

I am an atheist and a rather militant one. I care for none of the abrahamic religions.

And it is not that i think you cannot answer, I have no problem demonstrating just how ridiculous religious books are so why should you have a problem doing so.

Nor is it a deflection to point out that christian religion is just as disgusting as the islamic one.

The point here is that we can look at both the bible and the koran and find something disgusting and ridiculous about it. But those books are not the belief. For that we need to look at the person as an individual and what they say and do with their faith.

And i have met both people who use their religion either islam or christian to spread hatred and try to control others with it and those who have love and compassion for others with it.

It is phobic to pick one out and say they are wrong.

AGENT J said:

Thats factually not needed to define Islamophobia. Legitimate criticism of islam or Christianity etc doesnt really exist because legit is subjective. and thats common sense 101

people are individuals, subject perceptions of tenets are just that and dont apply to the religion as a whole

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No, I gave an example that is clearly not subjective. The words read, "Wa idrubu hunna" - And beat them. How could that be mistaken? Look at the link showing all 7 translations.

or every individual.

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That's up to each Muslim. Even though their god tells them to beat their disobedient wife doesn't mean they're all going to.

Islamophobia is slang and not based on typical "phobia" but IMO it has a very easy definition like racism or bigotry against religion. If you judge a person negatively simply based on their religion and that religion is islam then that is the slang version of Islamophobia.

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Correct.

If you claim your subjective opinioin of some tenets mean the religion as a whole is negative then that fits too.

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You would be right about that too if subjective opinion were solely at play. But it isn't. The Qur'an contains words that can be read and understood for exactly what they say.

it would be like condemning me, a Christians for the Christians that hate gays or how women are lesser etc etc. THe whole religion is NOT represented like that and every individual practicing does not see things that way. . . . . again . . common sense 101

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That's the tricky bit. Knowing what I do about Islam puts me in the uncomfortable position of trying not to judge individual Muslims. But when I know that the Qur'an calls us infidels "the worst of God's creatures" (8:22, 8:55), I can't help but wonder is he isn't judging me.

Serenity said:

Criticising a religion, (Islam), is not Islamophobia. Prejudice, hatred, or bigotry directed against Muslims in general, is. It's pretty simple.

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Simple maybe. But quite beyond the understanding of those who insist that the philosophy, all embracing world view, legal system and political programme that is Islam may not be questioned in any way. They remind me of those earlier useful idiots, willfully blind to the evils of Soviet Russia.

DH Kirkwood said:

I think it's quite simple really. All belief systems, cultures, and societies are free game for criticism so long as that criticism is based on fact, and not primitive impulses. I generally give the person the benefit of the doubt and assume the former, rather than the latter, until that person's behavior or lapses in logic gives me a reason to beleive otherwise. Where I'm certain I see genuine bigotry, is when I see someone make the mistake of talking about any large group of people as if they were an archtype. To put it simply, I can be very picky when it comes to whether or not a person critisizes Islam, Saudi Arabia . . . or Muslims. I am, to varying degrees, critical of all religions, but I hope I never have to catch myself talking about Christians as opposed to talking about Christianity

That's my bar.

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Mine too. When I do talk about Islam, to explain how it promotes violent jihad for example, I'm invariably accused of saying all Muslims are jihadists. They're not. BUT, the Qur'an tells them to be. Surahs 8, 9 and 61 are calls to arms, and those Muslims who wage jihad and their supporters do so because of those surahs.

stevecanuck said:

1.) No, I gave an example that is clearly not subjective. The words read, "Wa idrubu hunna" - And beat them. How could that be mistaken? Look at the link showing all 7 translations.
2.)That's up to each Muslim. Even though their god tells them to beat their disobedient wife doesn't mean they're all going to.
3.)Correct.
4.)You would be right about that too if subjective opinion were solely at play. But it isn't. The Qur'an contains words that can be read and understood for exactly what they say.
5.)That's the tricky bit. Knowing what I do about Islam puts me in the uncomfortable position of trying not to judge individual Muslims. But when I know that the Qur'an calls us infidels "the worst of God's creatures" (8:22, 8:55), I can't help but wonder is he isn't judging me.

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1.) actually it is unless of course every singly Muslim and mosque does that, practices it, enforces it and believes it . . . which that answer is nope
2.) exactly which makes it subjective
3.) yes i know cause i didnt make it up
4.) its not me thats right or wrong its reality and your claim is wrong again it is subjective opinion as facts already prove
5.) its not tricky at all its just understanding reality vs fiction and subjective opinions.

AGENT J said:

Thats factually not needed to define Islamophobia. Legitimate criticism of islam or Christianity etc doesnt really exist because legit is subjective. and thats common sense 101

people are individuals, subject perceptions of tenets are just that and dont apply to the religion as a whole or every individual.

Islamophobia is slang and not based on typical "phobia" but IMO it has a very easy definition like racism or bigotry against religion. If you judge a person negatively simply based on their religion and that religion is islam then that is the slang version of Islamophobia. If you claim your subjective opinioin of some tenets mean the religion as a whole is negative then that fits too. it would be like condemning me, a Christians for the Christians that hate gays or how women are lesser etc etc. THe whole religion is NOT represented like that and every individual practicing does not see things that way. . . . . again . . common sense 101

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A common error, assuming that Islam is just a 'religion'. It is much more. In particular a totalitarian system incompatible with 'Western' ideas of individual rights and freedoms.

Sweden said:

A common error, assuming that Islam is just a 'religion'. It is much more. In particular a totalitarian system incompatible with 'Western' ideas of individual rights and freedoms.

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not a error at all its only more if the people practicing it want it to be more like every religion. again its an individual thing, extremists exist everywhere.
im a christian and my religion could easily be argued the same way because going by extremists (or fundy views as some call it) it wouldnt be compatible with Western' ideas of individual rights and freedoms, but again thats simply not reality :shrug:

stevecanuck said:

Mine too. When I do talk about Islam, to explain how it promotes violent jihad for example, I'm invariably accused of saying all Muslims are jihadists. They're not. BUT, the Qur'an tells them to be. Surahs 8, 9 and 61 are calls to arms, and those Muslims who wage jihad and their supporters do so because of those surahs.

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When groups who do violent or otherwise awful things claim to be doing these things because their holy books told them to, then I tend to beleive them. I can remember what it's like to recoil at the accusation that my own religion may be the inspiration for so much violence and hate in the world, as well as a history of wars and evil things being done in god's name, In my mind, mine was a religion of peace and whatnot, and that God wasn't responsible for whatever was done in his name. Accept that he is, though I presently consider 'he' to be a fictional character, and the Bible to be more or less the hippie fanfiction version of Judaism.

I'm thankful for religious folk who can somehow bend their minds into a pretzel and completely ignore some of the most aweful aspects of their desert religions. It kind of feels like a conflict of interest; I'd prefer it if everyone would simply walk away from what I consider to be a reverence towards mythology and the suspension of critical thinking, but I can't help but find myself rooting for intellectual dishonesty in favor of benovolence and modern humanistic values. However, even if we assume that those people dominate the religious spectrum as a whole, save for perhaps the most theocratic of areas, the existence of radical, domatic splinter-groups and lone actors does not lend itself kindly to image of these religions being a net-benefit to the world.

soylentgreen said:

It is not a matter of not believing what you say. In fact i do agree religion is quite disgusting. But where we disagree is that the islamic religion should be treated any different from the christian.

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I agree. If you can show me where the bible explicitly has an open-ended call for believers to fight non-believers until Christianity (which is never even mentioned in the bible) reigns supreme, and where Jesus created an army of conquest and oversaw the slaughter of an entire tribe, then I will jump all over it.

Your pointing to a verse about subservience of woman show no difference as the christian religion has the same problem.

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Yes, but are you called names for saying so?

I am an atheist and a rather militant one. I care for none of the abrahamic religions.

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Me too. I don't have a god in this fight. I simply recognize that Islam is unique in the hatred and militancy it teaches.

And it is not that i think you cannot answer, I have no problem demonstrating just how ridiculous religious books are so why should you have a problem doing so.

Nor is it a deflection to point out that christian religion is just as disgusting as the islamic one.

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That statement implies sufficient knowledge of both religions to make a comparison. I have that knowledge, and I can say without reservation that Islam gradually morphed into a hate-filled warrior religion, whereas the mythical character named Jesus is ascribed attributes that reversed the awful crap in the OT. Btw, I still don't understand how the message of love and forgiveness was completely ignored by many Christians for about 1600 years.

The point here is that we can look at both the bible and the koran and find something disgusting and ridiculous about it.

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Correct, but the Qur'an outdoes the bible by orders of magnitude

But those books are not the belief.

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Now that is absolutely wrong in terms of the Qur'an. It exists for the sole purpose of creating and defining Islam.

For that we need to look at the person as an individual and what they say and do with their faith.

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Now you're talking about degree of adherence to what is taught; not what is taught itself.

And i have met both people who use their religion either islam or christian to spread hatred and try to control others with it and those who have love and compassion for others with it.

It is phobic to pick one out and say they are wrong.

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It would only be phobic to assume all Muslims are strictly adherent when we all know they are not. It is NOT phobic to show that the actions of haters and terrorists can be directly linked to the words of the Qur'an and the exemplar deeds of Mohamed.

I hope that helps you understand my position.

AGENT J said:

1.) actually it is unless of course every singly Muslim and mosque does that, practices it, enforces it and believes it . . . which that answer is nope
2.) exactly which makes it subjective
3.) yes i know cause i didnt make it up
4.) its not me thats right or wrong its reality and your claim is wrong again it is subjective opinion as facts already prove
5.) its not tricky at all its just understanding reality vs fiction and subjective opinions.

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You don't seem to understand the difference between command and obedience.

The Qur'an issues commands; individual Muslims determine their own degree of obedience.

stevecanuck said:

You don't seem to understand the difference between command and obedience.

The Qur'an issues commands; individual Muslims determine their own degree of obedience.

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Again your feelings and opinions dont matter to facts and reality, nothing you just said changes anything about my post and the facts i pointed out . . not one thing.

DH Kirkwood said:

When groups who do violent or otherwise awful things claim to be doing these things because their holy books told them to, then I tend to beleive them. I can remember what it's like to recoil at the accusation that my own religion may be the inspiration for so much violence and hate in the world, as well as a history of wars and evil things being done in god's name, In my mind, mine was a religion of peace and whatnot, and that God wasn't responsible for whatever was done in his name. Accept that he is, though I presently consider 'he' to be a fictional character, and the Bible to be more or less the hippie fanfiction version of Judaism.

I'm thankful for religious folk who can somehow bend their minds into a pretzel and completely ignore some of the most aweful aspects of their desert religions. It kind of feels like a conflict of interest; I'd prefer it if everyone would simply walk away from what I consider to be a reverence towards mythology and the suspension of critical thinking, but I can't help but find myself rooting for intellectual dishonesty in favor of benovolence and modern humanistic values. However, even if we assume that those people dominate the religious spectrum as a whole, save for perhaps the most theocratic of areas, the existence of radical, domatic splinter-groups and lone actors does not lend itself kindly to image of these religions being a net-benefit to the world.

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Many a horrible thing has been done in the name of one god or another, and just because said god's name is invoked does not mean it's teachings actually required the commission of atrocities. Proof of that lies in the reading of the scriptures. I could quote surahs 8, 9, and 61, give all the background necessary to understand the context in which they were written, but it would create more of a read than most are willing to commit to. I plan to do just that one of these days, but it is NOT a trivial endeavor.

AGENT J said:

Again your feelings and opinions dont matter to facts and reality, nothing you just said changes anything about my post and the facts i pointed out . . not one thing.

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Troll away.

stevecanuck said:

Troll away.

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LMAO thats what I thought!!!
Again your feelings and opinions dont matter to facts and reality, nothing you just said changes anything about my post and the facts i pointed out . . not one thing.:lamo

It's Quebec's fault. Their public institutions have been rife with anti-Islamic sentiment for years now, even at the highest levels. They have more human rights cases in that province on this subject than any other province in Canada. The day to day racism there is nothing new but it escalated with Quebec trying to ban the hijab and niqab in public. They just can't keep their bigoted opinions to themselves, so now the Fed is making more anti-speech laws. They are about to do the same thing for trans and non-binary people, which sounds good on paper but in practice if you don't call any of the 10 million different genders by their preferred pronoun, you could lose your job if your workplace gets government funding (like universities). It gives leftists a perfect opportunity to manipulate authority figures through speech distortion.

I respect the stories and daily struggles of Muslims in Canada but I disagree with them being given special treatment as a group beyond the pre-existing anti-discrimination laws. There's a way around this that doesn't require speech control or special dispensation.

stevecanuck said:

I agree. If you can show me where the bible explicitly has an open-ended call for believers to fight non-believers until Christianity (which is never even mentioned in the bible) reigns supreme, and where Jesus created an army of conquest and oversaw the slaughter of an entire tribe, then I will jump all over it.

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2 Chronicles 15:12-13
And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

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Yes, but are you called names for saying so?

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If being told as a woman you are mere chattel to be obedient to a man the yes.

Me too. I don't have a god in this fight. I simply recognize that Islam is unique in the hatred and militancy it teaches.

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While i recognise that the book is nothing. It is what people make of it. There are good and bad on both sides.

That statement implies sufficient knowledge of both religions to make a comparison. I have that knowledge, and I can say without reservation that Islam gradually morphed into a hate-filled warrior religion, whereas the mythical character named Jesus is ascribed attributes that reversed the awful crap in the OT. Btw, I still don't understand how the message of love and forgiveness was completely ignored by many Christians for about 1600 years.

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All you are doing is cherry picking both books. As both of them share the same messages of love thy fellow man as well as kill the infidel.

Correct, but the Qur'an outdoes the bible by orders of magnitude

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Not at all. What you are seeing is a cultural difference. It is those who are in power that teach violence is the answer.

Now that is absolutely wrong in terms of the Qur'an. It exists for the sole purpose of creating and defining Islam.

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Yet every person has their own interpretation of it. Both books are written in such a way that they justify to someone to go out and kill while to another they justify only acts of kindness. Like you are doing they too only cherry pick that which they wish to believe in the first place.

Now you're talking about degree of adherence to what is taught; not what is taught itself.

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What is taught depends on who you listen to. Go to the westboro baptist church and you will learn god hates gays. Go to most anglican churches and you just night be sitting next to a gay person.

It would only be phobic to assume all Muslims are strictly adherent when we all know they are not. It is NOT phobic to show that the actions of haters and terrorists can be directly linked to the words of the Qur'an and the exemplar deeds of Mohamed.

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Yet the same can be said for christians.

I hope that helps you understand my position.

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The position is a cultural one. In america politicians and hate groups have focused on islam as an evil. Where as where i live they are simply another part of the community i live with.

This is not really about islam it is about why americans live in a country that practices divisiveness and hostility as an expected norm of life.