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Defining Islamophobia

soylentgreen said:
2 Chronicles 15:12-13 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.
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The following explanation is from Does 2 Chronicles 15:13 tell Christians to kill non-believers?

This is a popular piece of scripture many people misquote and attempt to say it means that God calls Christians to kill non-believers.

Well first off it’s important to look at the whole chapter so you can see what is really being said here. 2 Chronicles 15:1-15 details how Asa, the king of Judah, and the people of Judah and Benjamin, had strayed away from the God of Israel but had now turned back to the Lord in times of great distress. It goes on further to say that in their repentance they made a covenant between themselves and God to:

“…seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, 13 but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death” (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

They were not by any means saying all people who don’t believe in God should be killed, they were saying: we as individuals and as a group are committing to seek and follow God and if we don’t follow through on this covenant we make with God, we should be put to death.​

What you did not provide is anything from the NT to back that up. Jesus was all about love and forgiveness. The only time a sword was raised in his name he put an immediate stop to it and healed the wound of the person struck. Mohamed slaughtered all the men and youths from the Banu Quraiza Jewish tribe. Bit of difference, don't you think?
 
soylentgreen said:
While i recognise that the book is nothing. It is what people make of it. There are good and bad on both sides.
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The book is nothing? It's hard to respond to a statement that could not be more wrong.

The Qur'an was created to define Islam. I don't know how much more it could be not "nothing".

Really, if you're going to suggest that the Qur'an can be anything you want it to be, then there's nothing more I can say.


All you are doing is cherry picking both books.
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When out of arguments, invoke "cherry picking". But don't worry, you still have "out of context", "what hate site did you get that from?", and "bad translation" to go through before you run out of meaningless phrases from the auto-deny handbook.

As both of them share the same messages of love thy fellow man as well as kill the infidel.
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Is it possible to be even more than 100% wrong? If so, you're certainly trying. Here are a few hundred verses "cherry picked" from the Qur'an for you to mull over.

Intolerance in the Quran


Not at all. What you are seeing is a cultural difference. It is those who are in power that teach violence is the answer.

Yet every person has their own interpretation of it. Both books are written in such a way that they justify to someone to go out and kill while to another they justify only acts of kindness. Like you are doing they too only cherry pick that which they wish to believe in the first place.

What is taught depends on who you listen to. Go to the westboro baptist church and you will learn god hates gays. Go to most anglican churches and you just night be sitting next to a gay person.

Yet the same can be said for christians.

The position is a cultural one. In america politicians and hate groups have focused on islam as an evil. Where as where i live they are simply another part of the community i live with.

This is not really about islam it is about why americans live in a country that practices divisiveness and hostility as an expected norm of life.
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No, No, and No. The Qur'an, from cover to cover, defines a world split into two camps:Islam and disbelief. Every single example of good vs. bad is described in those terms. EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE. "God's" hatred for all things and people infidel is visceral and undeniable.
 
stevecanuck said:
The following explanation is from Does 2 Chronicles 15:13 tell Christians to kill non-believers?

This is a popular piece of scripture many people misquote and attempt to say it means that God calls Christians to kill non-believers.

Well first off it’s important to look at the whole chapter so you can see what is really being said here. 2 Chronicles 15:1-15 details how Asa, the king of Judah, and the people of Judah and Benjamin, had strayed away from the God of Israel but had now turned back to the Lord in times of great distress. It goes on further to say that in their repentance they made a covenant between themselves and God to:

“…seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, 13 but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death” (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

They were not by any means saying all people who don’t believe in God should be killed, they were saying: we as individuals and as a group are committing to seek and follow God and if we don’t follow through on this covenant we make with God, we should be put to death.​

What you did not provide is anything from the NT to back that up. Jesus was all about love and forgiveness. The only time a sword was raised in his name he put an immediate stop to it and healed the wound of the person struck. Mohamed slaughtered all the men and youths from the Banu Quraiza Jewish tribe. Bit of difference, don't you think?
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This is an excuse often given by those who wish to cherry pick the bible. In order to say that those christians who will follow that advise are not true christians.

But then muslims do the same thing. Those that seek peace will pick out the parts that follow peace while those who seek war will pick out the parts that follow war.

Again. It really matters not what the books say. It matters who chooses what from those books.
 
stevecanuck said:
The book is nothing? It's hard to respond to a statement that could not be more wrong.

The Qur'an was created to define Islam. I don't know how much more it could be not "nothing".

Really, if you're going to suggest that the Qur'an can be anything you want it to be, then there's nothing more I can say.




When out of arguments, invoke "cherry picking". But don't worry, you still have "out of context", "what hate site did you get that from?", and "bad translation" to go through before you run out of meaningless phrases from the auto-deny handbook.



Is it possible to be even more than 100% wrong? If so, you're certainly trying. Here are a few hundred verses "cherry picked" from the Qur'an for you to mull over.

Intolerance in the Quran




No, No, and No. The Qur'an, from cover to cover, defines a world split into two camps:Islam and disbelief. Every single example of good vs. bad is described in those terms. EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE. "God's" hatred for all things and people infidel is visceral and undeniable.
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Yet like christianity you will find muslims who talk of peace and harmony and those who talk of war. The there are those like yourself who wish only to hate.
 
soylentgreen said:
This is an excuse often given by those who wish to cherry pick the bible. In order to say that those christians who will follow that advise are not true christians.

But then muslims do the same thing. Those that seek peace will pick out the parts that follow peace while those who seek war will pick out the parts that follow war.

Again. It really matters not what the books say. It matters who chooses what from those books.
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You really seem bent on hanging your hat on that, so fill your boots. If you want to pretend that Muslims are free to edit God, I can't stop you.
 
soylentgreen said:
Yet like christianity you will find muslims who talk of peace and harmony and those who talk of war. The there are those like yourself who wish only to hate.
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I'm not talking about "muslims". I'm talking about Islam as defined by the Qur'an which, if you will remember, exists only to define Islam. Got that? Islam. NOT individual Muslims.
 
stevecanuck said:
With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.
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When it is your head being lopped off on the web by these wonderful people who have declared war and vowed to kill the infidels we will see if you have a fear of Islam.
 
stevecanuck said:
I'm not talking about "muslims". I'm talking about Islam as defined by the Qur'an which, if you will remember, exists only to define Islam. Got that? Islam. NOT individual Muslims.
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But that is my point. The religion is about the individual muslim. Just as christian religion is about the individual person.

All you can do with the either book is cherry pick that which suites you. Islam is not defined by a book no more than christianity is defined by a book. If that was the case then all the theists would have the same view. But they do not.
 
soylentgreen said:
But that is my point. The religion is about the individual muslim. Just as christian religion is about the individual person.
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So, there are 1.5 billion unique Islamic religions? Really?

The religion is what Mohamed-pretending-to-be-God said it was. You are confusing individual degree of adherence with what is expected of them.

All you can do with the either book is cherry pick that which suites you.
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You seem to think that invoking "cherry picking" is somehow a real argument, but it's just a transparent attempt to trivialize certain verses in the Qur'an. It's utterly meaningless.

Islam is not defined by a book
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Of all the ignorant statements that countless posters have made about Islam, that one is head and shoulders above them all.

Allow me to "cherry pick" the verse that sums it all up (5:3). This is the Qur'an's final instruction:

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
 
Casper said:
Fear of Different, ie: Ignorance.
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Lions are different.

You can choose not to fear them if you want, but it won't stop you from being mauled.

I'm under no moral or ethical obligation to accept or respect Islam, or christianity, or Judaism, and I don't. You can create a cute label for that, and while it might make you feel good and all warm and tingly, it isn't going to change my mind.
 
Mircea said:
Lions are different.

You can choose not to fear them if you want, but it won't stop you from being mauled.

I'm under no moral or ethical obligation to accept or respect Islam, or christianity, or Judaism, and I don't. You can create a cute label for that, and while it might make you feel good and all warm and tingly, it isn't going to change my mind.
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You seem confused, let me clear that up for you, I don't give a cra* what you believe. Clear as a bell now?
 
stevecanuck said:
So, there are 1.5 billion unique Islamic religions? Really?

The religion is what Mohamed-pretending-to-be-God said it was. You are confusing individual degree of adherence with what is expected of them.



You seem to think that invoking "cherry picking" is somehow a real argument, but it's just a transparent attempt to trivialize certain verses in the Qur'an. It's utterly meaningless.



Of all the ignorant statements that countless posters have made about Islam, that one is head and shoulders above them all.

Allow me to "cherry pick" the verse that sums it all up (5:3). This is the Qur'an's final instruction:

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
Click to expand...

No there are millions of islamic with their own priority of what to believe, Just as there is with christianity.

It is only those who use religion for their own grab for power that expect theists to behave in the way they dictate.

No, i think you are cherry picking parts that allow you to hate islam.

And yet we still have muslims who preach peace and acceptance while others preach war and hate. just as christians do.

You can keep pointing to a book and say that they must obey it. Or you can look at the people who are theists and see the variety of beliefs that exist.
 
Unconsciously, perhaps, many Christians consider Islam to be a kind of dark shadow of their own faith, with the ugly words of the Koran standing in absolute contrast to the scriptures they themselves cherish. In the minds of ordinary Christians - and Jews - the Koran teaches savagery and warfare, while the Bible offers a message of love, forgiveness, and charity. For the prophet Micah, God's commands to his people are summarized in the words "act justly, and love mercy, and walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). Christians recall the words of the dying Jesus: "Father, forgive them: they know not what they do."

But in terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong. In fact, the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races - of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted. One cherished psalm (137) begins with the lovely line, "By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept"; it ends by blessing anyone who would seize Babylon's infants and smash their skulls against the rocks.

Violent passages in the Koran and the Bible - The Boston Globe
 
soylentgreen said:
No there are millions of islamic with their own priority of what to believe, Just as there is with christianity.
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That's a non-sequitur. Even if not one person in the world followed the Qur'an, it would not change the fact that it was created for the sole purpose of defining Islam. You simply can't deny that was the intention, yet you do.

It is only those who use religion for their own grab for power that expect theists to behave in the way they dictate.
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There your fundamental error yet again. It's not THEY who dictate; it's "God".

No, i think you are cherry picking parts that allow you to hate islam.
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Nothing "allows" me to hate Islam. Reading the Qur'an in it's entirety is what MAKES me hate Islam. Although I haven't done so, I imagine that reading Mein Kampf in it's entirety would make me hate Hitler (if I didn't already).

And yet we still have muslims who preach peace and acceptance while others preach war and hate. just as christians do.
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Yup, I've never denied that. Still doesn't change a word of what I'm saying about Islam.

You can keep pointing to a book and say that they must obey it.
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They must obey it if they want to avoid going to Hell (according to "God").

Or you can look at the people who are theists and see the variety of beliefs that exist.
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Yup. Never said otherwise. That's like saying speed limits don't exist because people drive at various speeds.

The rules exist. They're in the Qur'an. Some obey, some don't. What the hell is so hard to understand about that?
 
zyzygy said:
Unconsciously, perhaps, many Christians consider Islam to be a kind of dark shadow of their own faith, with the ugly words of the Koran standing in absolute contrast to the scriptures they themselves cherish. In the minds of ordinary Christians - and Jews - the Koran teaches savagery and warfare, while the Bible offers a message of love, forgiveness, and charity. For the prophet Micah, God's commands to his people are summarized in the words "act justly, and love mercy, and walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). Christians recall the words of the dying Jesus: "Father, forgive them: they know not what they do."

But in terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong. In fact, the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races - of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted. One cherished psalm (137) begins with the lovely line, "By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept"; it ends by blessing anyone who would seize Babylon's infants and smash their skulls against the rocks.

Violent passages in the Koran and the Bible - The Boston Globe
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If that were true, then please hallucinate further and tell us why Mohamed had the entire male population of the Jewish Banu Quraiza tribe beheaded AFTER they had surrendered. This is Mohamed remember. You know, the guy who Muslims are expected to take as the ultimate example.

^^^^^ That is a REAL question, not a drive-by. Please tell us how your claim comports with the slaughter of the Banu Quraiza.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
When it is your head being lopped off on the web by these wonderful people who have declared war and vowed to kill the infidels we will see if you have a fear of Islam.
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What "wonderful people" are you talking about? Muslims? What would you say to a Buddhist in China who sees news reports of mass shootings in America and uses this to justify a fear of those "wonderful people" who call themselves Christians?
 
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stevecanuck said:
If that were true, then please hallucinate further and tell us why Mohamed had the entire male population of the Jewish Banu Quraiza tribe beheaded AFTER they had surrendered. This is Mohamed remember. You know, the guy who Muslims are expected to take as the ultimate example.

^^^^^ That is a REAL question, not a drive-by. Please tell us how your claim comports with the slaughter of the Banu Quraiza.
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Why is it not true? Haven't you read the Bible? I was quoting, that is not a hallucination. Shall I list all the slaughtering in the Bible? Way to go for avoiding the point.
 
Mircea said:
Lions are different.

You can choose not to fear them if you want, but it won't stop you from being mauled.

I'm under no moral or ethical obligation to accept or respect Islam, or christianity, or Judaism, and I don't. You can create a cute label for that, and while it might make you feel good and all warm and tingly, it isn't going to change my mind.
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But choosing not to fear lions gives you virtually nothing in return. Choosing not to fear Muslims opens you up to an entirely new culture full of wonderful and loving people who could teach you things about yourself that you can't even imagine. Why choose to turn your back on such an opportunity? The chances of you making new friends and learning new things about yourself and about the world are 99.99999%. The chances of you being beheaded by a Muslim in America are about as close to nil as you can get, and are for all intents and purposes equal to your chances of being beheaded by a Christian.
 
lwf said:
What "wonderful people" are you talking about? Muslims? What would you say to a Buddhist in China who sees news reports of mass shootings in America and uses this to justify a fear of those "wonderful people" who call themselves Christians?
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If we declare war on you, burn your flag, and quote from our bible that we are required to kill you I think yea you need to fear us. As a matter of fact you ever figure out in the last 2000 years how many people have been killed and/or put to death by Christians. I will bet it exceeds 10million and is closer to it not over 100 million. You might want to have some fear of Christians when looking at their history. I would say the majority of people put to death or killed could be directly related to religion in general.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
If we declare war on you, burn your flag, and quote from our bible that we are required to kill you I think yea you need to fear us. As a matter of fact you ever figure out in the last 2000 years how many people have been killed and/or put to death by Christians. I will bet it exceeds 10million and is closer to it not over 100 million. You might want to have some fear of Christians when looking at their history. I would say the majority of people put to death or killed could be directly related to religion in general.
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But in today's society, and especially in America, to have a fear of a people based on their religion is an irrational fear based on a generalization stemming from horror stories we hear about rather than personal experience. Neither Christians nor Muslims put people to death with any regularity at all. Some terrorists who identify as Muslims or Christians do, but they are a fraction of a fraction of a percent of those religions and in no way represent them.

99.999% of Muslims (and Christians) are no danger to anyone, therefore to fear them because of their religion is irrational.
 
stevecanuck said:
With the word Islamophobia being thrown about like Frisbees in a dog park, isn't it time we actually defined it? Iqra Khalid's M-103 introduced and then condemned Islamophobia in Canada's House of Commons minus any explanation of what it is. Such vagueness leaves the door to abuse wide open. Canadians would be vulnerable to capricious and politically-motivated prosecution/persecution should parliament take M-103 to the next level and pass an imprecisely worded law criminalizing Islamophobia.

Our right to responsibly speak freely and debate uncomfortable subjects is at stake. In defining Islamophobia we have to recognize that legitimate criticism of some tenets of Islam, or any other religion, is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence. This is Free Speech 101.
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Islamaphobia is a disinformation campaign created by the Left in order to try to make people feel bad or shut up about a very real threat... Islam.
 
zyzygy said:
Why is it not true? Haven't you read the Bible? I was quoting, that is not a hallucination. Shall I list all the slaughtering in the Bible? Way to go for avoiding the point.
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Your words: it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender.

Reality: Mohamed has hundreds of Jews beheaded and their women and children taken as slaves.

And you talk about avoiding the point? That's rich.
 
lwf said:
But choosing not to fear lions gives you virtually nothing in return. Choosing not to fear Muslims opens you up to an entirely new culture full of wonderful and loving people who could teach you things about yourself that you can't even imagine. Why choose to turn your back on such an opportunity? The chances of you making new friends and learning new things about yourself and about the world are 99.99999%. The chances of you being beheaded by a Muslim in America are about as close to nil as you can get, and are for all intents and purposes equal to your chances of being beheaded by a Christian.
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Terrorism is not about a head count (quite literally in your example). It's about changing our way of life. Richard Reed, infamous failed shoe bomber, killed exactly zero people, but changed airport culture around the world. THAT is successful "failure".
 
stevecanuck said:
Your words: it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender.

Reality: Mohamed has hundreds of Jews beheaded and their women and children taken as slaves.

And you talk about avoiding the point? That's rich.
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Not my words. Now, what about the massacres in the Bible?

And if one of the disbelievers surrenders and pleads mercy, then show mercy so that they can hear the words of Allah, and then allow him to go back to his place of safety. [Qur’an 9: 5]
 
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