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Try to look at Islam academically.

stevecanuck said:
Sorry, but if you want to deflect to Christianity, you'll have to get in line behind about 20 other posters. This thread was meant to discuss Islam.
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Fair enough, but what is the purpose and what should the topics be? Are we to discuss the beauty of Islamic-influenced Arab architecture in southern Spain, the parts of the Koran that mandate hospitality and peace, differences between, say, Islam in the Middle East and in Indonesia, the tragedy of the Crusades, the expulsion of Muslims (and Jews) from Spain, the various and sometimes brutal conquests by Arabic Muslims, Muhammed’s flaws, Trump’s scapegoating if Muslims, their influence on my Sicilian relatives’ cooking, and/or how (I am told) their traditions and laws about irrigation in the desert had some influence in the US southwest? Simply put, is your intention to eliminate misunderstanding about Islam or to trash it?
 
Eriech said:
It is something that the west needs to debate. Does Islam allow Muslims to assimilate in the west? Is Islam compatible with the west?

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Is Judaism?
 
stevecanuck said:
Despite the very easily understood reason for making this thread and naming it as I have, you want to completely ignore that and still talk about Muslims. Go ahead, but don't expect a response.
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You made this thread about Muslims. I am comparing Muslims to those of other religions, pointing out how all religions vary in how their members interpret their scriptures, what parts are important, what parts many but not all ignore, and even what parts some use to justify their actions against others, including killing them, based on actual writings in their holy books (that many in their religion do not agree with or do not take seriously).

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Nickyjo said:
Fair enough, but what is the purpose and what should the topics be?
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Education. Knowledge. What Islam (the qur'an) teaches.

Are we to discuss the beauty of Islamic-influenced Arab architecture in southern Spain,
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Islam says nothing about architecture. The beauty of the buildings came from the talents of the architects.

the parts of the Koran that mandate hospitality and peace,
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Yes, and whether they are contradicted by other verses, and how to resolve any contradictions. I can get into this in a separate post.

differences between, say, Islam in the Middle East and in Indonesia,
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Sure, why not?

the tragedy of the Crusades, the expulsion of Muslims (and Jews) from Spain,
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That's venturing into whataboutism, which we have more than enough of on DP.

the various and sometimes brutal conquests by Arabic Muslims, Muhammed’s flaws,
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And how they relate to verses of the Qur'an.

Trump’s scapegoating if Muslims, their influence on my Sicilian relatives’ cooking, and/or how (I am told) their traditions and laws about irrigation in the desert had some influence in the US southwest?
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I stopped reading at "Trump"

Simply put, is your intention to eliminate misunderstanding about Islam or to trash it?
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To tell the truth about it. Just the simple truth.
 
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roguenuke said:
You made this thread about Muslims.
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And just where did I do that?

I am comparing Muslims to those of other religions, pointing out how all religions vary in how their members interpret their scriptures, what parts are important, what parts many but not all ignore, and even what parts some use to justify their actions against others, including killing them, based on actual writings in their holy books (that many in their religion do not agree with or do not take seriously).

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Anyone who thinks Muslims can disagree with or "not take seriously" the words of their God is at square zero in terms of understanding Islam.
 
stevecanuck said:
Education. Knowledge. What Islam (the qur'an) teaches.



Islam says nothing about architecture. The beauty of the buildings came from the talents of the architects.

++ Maybe not. Islam, as I understand it, forbids images of the Prophet and other figures. They make up for it in the beauty of their architectural designs.



Yes, and whether they are contradicted by other verses, and how to resolve any contradictions. I can get into this in a separate post.



Sure, why not?



That's venturing into whataboutism, which we have more than enough of on DP.



And how they relate to verses of the Qur'an.



I stopped reading at "Trump"



To tell the truth about it. Just the simple truth.
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Ok, can’t wait Perhaps for your analysis. I misjudged. But you seem to be a bit disingenuous. We are are living in a time when our president suggested surveillance of mosques and banning all Muslims. Context is (almost) everything.
 
stevecanuck said:
And just where did I do that?



Anyone who thinks Muslims can disagree with or "not take seriously" the words of their God is at square zero in terms of understanding Islam.
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The thread title itself is about Islam and the OP about how people should read/interpret the words of the Koran, specifically believers, hence being about Muslims.

Why is that when Christians and Jews do it? Christians dont take seriously the words of the Bible all the time, ignoring them in favor of much more softer and more modern interpretations and beliefs. I have no problem believing Muslims would and do do the same.

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roguenuke said:
The thread title itself is about Islam and the OP about how people should read/interpret the words of the Koran, specifically believers, hence being about Muslims.
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I can't do anything about your lack of reading comprehension. That's your problem.

Why is that when Christians and Jews do it? Christians dont take seriously the words of the Bible all the time, ignoring them in favor of much more softer and more modern interpretations and beliefs. I have no problem believing Muslims would and do do the same.

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Let's try a real example. Show me how verse 9:29 can be made "much more softer and more modern".

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection".

Specifically, address the first word, "qatilu". It is the imperative of 'qatl' (قتل), which, as you will see when you paste it into any number of Arabic to English translators, means 'kill/fight/slay/murder'. Make that 'softer' for me. Actually, ISIS etal have succeeded in making it more modern. They have replaced the scimitar with more modern weapons (except of course for ritual beheadings).
 
stevecanuck said:
The most difficult aspect of judging Islam solely on what it teaches is doing so without seeming to defame Muslims as a whole. When I quote the verses that, for example, explicitly tell Muslims to fight Infidels in order to establish Islamic rule, I'm invariably accused of saying All Muslims are terrorists, and things deteriorate from there.

So, I propose you try to treat the subject as though you are in school studying long-dead religions. Try to imagine that Islam died out centuries ago, and that you're simply studying it as an academic exercise. Just look at what the Qur'an and hadiths say coupled with early Islamic history. That will allow you to separate cold, hard fact from the emotional baggage of having Muslim friends, neighbours, and coworkers with whom you get along just fine.
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Here is the problem concerning the texts/teachings... The “problem” comes in the interpretation, not the texts.... well kinda.

See the Bible says just as much horrific things as the Koran, often they share the same horrific texts due to them both being based on the Judaism. MODERN MAINSTREAM Christians just choose to ignore them..

So obviously, just like all the christians and Muslims who are not terrorists, they could just choose to ignore the horrible parts.

What makes it “racist” is ONLY attacking Islam’s texts as if it is unique, when there is a Christian church on every corner and the Bible says plenty of horrible things AND CHRISTIANITY has a long history of atrocities..


The hypocrisy is what makes it racist, not the criticism.

For example:

Not racist: If your like Islam and Christianity are just disgusting in their teachings and texts..

Racist: “Islam is evil!! Look at their teachings.. hurry up or we will be late for church..”


Lol












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stevecanuck said:
The most difficult aspect of judging Islam solely on what it teaches is doing so without seeming to defame Muslims as a whole. When I quote the verses that, for example, explicitly tell Muslims to fight Infidels in order to establish Islamic rule, I'm invariably accused of saying All Muslims are terrorists, and things deteriorate from there.

So, I propose you try to treat the subject as though you are in school studying long-dead religions. Try to imagine that Islam died out centuries ago, and that you're simply studying it as an academic exercise. Just look at what the Qur'an and hadiths say coupled with early Islamic history. That will allow you to separate cold, hard fact from the emotional baggage of having Muslim friends, neighbours, and coworkers with whom you get along just fine.
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If you do the same with christianity you will reach the same conclusion
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I am highly critical of all religions, especially the Abrahamic religions, but I have just learned there are some people you can't debate religion with. It doesn't matter how unemotional of an approach you take, there will always be people who take the criticism personally.
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Highly critical of all religions?? Not racist..

Highly critical of one religion while the one you practice says all the same things??? Definitely a hypocrite.. maybe racist.


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ArtemisBarca said:
Here is the problem concerning the texts/teachings... The “problem” comes in the interpretation, not the texts.... well kinda.

See the Bible says just as much horrific things as the Koran, often they share the same horrific texts due to them both being based on the Judaism. MODERN MAINSTREAM Christians just choose to ignore them..

So obviously, just like all the christians and Muslims who are not terrorists, they could just choose to ignore the horrible parts.

What makes it “racist” is ONLY attacking Islam’s texts as if it is unique, when there is a Christian church on every corner and the Bible says plenty of horrible things AND CHRISTIANITY has a long history of atrocities..


The hypocrisy is what makes it racist, not the criticism.

For example:

Not racist: If your like Islam and Christianity are just disgusting in their teachings and texts..

Racist: “Islam is evil!! Look at their teachings.. hurry up or we will be late for church..”


Lol












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Your entire argument is based on a fallacy. Have you ever read the Qur'an or studied Islam in any way?
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Highly critical of all religions?? Not racist..

Highly critical of one religion while the one you practice says all the same things??? Definitely a hypocrite.. maybe racist.


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No other religion even comes close to Islam in terms of promoting world domination by violence.
 
stevecanuck said:
Of course not. There was this guy named Hitler. You may have heard of him.
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Well he did in part use christianity.


That's that in depth study

Guess what was on the belt buckle of every SS soldier?
 
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stevecanuck said:
No other religion even comes close to Islam in terms of promoting world domination by violence.
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What are you talking about ..

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live..”

Stone the gays

God tells the Israelites to murder all the cannites for being a different religion..


The Bible is full of horrific passages THAT HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN USED TO JUSTIFY ATROCITIES?!?!


It is just that MAINSTREAM Christians just haven’t been raping and murdering IN THEIR LORDS NAME, in a few generations.

Ya’ll got 2,000 years of atrocities before that..




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stevecanuck said:
So, that's a no. You have no knowledge of Islam, which precludes you from making any comparisons.
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You are also precluded form any comparision.

So do not claim I am wrong. Prove it

Whete did you study islam?
 
stevecanuck said:
The most difficult aspect of judging Islam solely on what it teaches is doing so without seeming to defame Muslims as a whole. When I quote the verses that, for example, explicitly tell Muslims to fight Infidels in order to establish Islamic rule, I'm invariably accused of saying All Muslims are terrorists, and things deteriorate from there.

So, I propose you try to treat the subject as though you are in school studying long-dead religions. Try to imagine that Islam died out centuries ago, and that you're simply studying it as an academic exercise. Just look at what the Qur'an and hadiths say coupled with early Islamic history. That will allow you to separate cold, hard fact from the emotional baggage of having Muslim friends, neighbours, and coworkers with whom you get along just fine.
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True faith to the commandments of a God, not the Expense of Government on Earth!

All we need for a Commune of Heaven on Earth is social morals for free.
 
ArtemisBarca said:
What are you talking about ..

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live..”

Stone the gays

God tells the Israelites to murder all the cannites for being a different religion..


The Bible is full of horrific passages THAT HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN USED TO JUSTIFY ATROCITIES?!?!


It is just that MAINSTREAM Christians just haven’t been raping and murdering IN THEIR LORDS NAME, in a few generations.

Ya’ll got 2,000 years of atrocities before that..




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I'll ask you the same question that everybody else dodges. What did Jesus ever DO to serve as an example for committing atrocities?

Mohamed had hundreds of Jews beheaded and started wars. There's your real world comparison.
 
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