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Religious Relics

OlNate

OlNate

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I've always been fascinated by religious relics - the idea of a physical item that is somehow connected to a deity. Some religions, including some Christian denominations, place a lot of importance on relics - the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church being prime examples...but being Lutheran, I didn't come from one, so only have a very limited perspective. :)

Would be interested in hearing from folks who know more about the subject - not looking for a debate on whether or not they are valid, not looking for wiki links, and I chose this sub forum deliberately to keep the conversation civil. Just looking for the perspective of folks to whom they are important, whether Christian or any other religion, and maybe how they are viewed today vs. the past, if a distinction can be made.

Any takers? :)
 
OlNate said:
I've always been fascinated by religious relics - the idea of a physical item that is somehow connected to a deity. Some religions, including some Christian denominations, place a lot of importance on relics - the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church being prime examples...but being Lutheran, I didn't come from one, so only have a very limited perspective. :)

Would be interested in hearing from folks who know more about the subject - not looking for a debate on whether or not they are valid, not looking for wiki links, and I chose this sub forum deliberately to keep the conversation civil. Just looking for the perspective of folks to whom they are important, whether Christian or any other religion, and maybe how they are viewed today vs. the past, if a distinction can be made.

Any takers? :)
Click to expand...

When you say you're fascinated by them, do you mean as to their disturbing nature?


OM
 
OlNate said:
I've always been fascinated by religious relics - the idea of a physical item that is somehow connected to a deity. Some religions, including some Christian denominations, place a lot of importance on relics - the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church being prime examples...but being Lutheran, I didn't come from one, so only have a very limited perspective. :)

Would be interested in hearing from folks who know more about the subject - not looking for a debate on whether or not they are valid, not looking for wiki links, and I chose this sub forum deliberately to keep the conversation civil. Just looking for the perspective of folks to whom they are important, whether Christian or any other religion, and maybe how they are viewed today vs. the past, if a distinction can be made.

Any takers? :)
Click to expand...

From the Catholic perspective it has always seemed to me to be no different than, say, a signed piece of sports memorabilia. The Catholic Church sees itself as the one true church that has a history and a lineage that dates back to the beginning of the faith, so for them the relics are a connection to the Church's history. In fact, not that I think about it, the longer a branch of faith has existed, the more likely they seem to be to embrace the significance of religious artifacts because, unlike other faiths, they've been around long enough to have amassed them.

Edit: I mean, there are sects of Christianity that actively oppose relics as "iconography", but they all seem to accept the Bible as a form of reliquary.
 
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Omega Man said:
When you say you're fascinated by them, do you mean as to their disturbing nature?


OM
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Trying to reserve judgement, bud. They're not part of my experience, so who am I to judge? I'm not sure I have the required understanding to have much of a say, in terms of whether or not they are disturbing, beyond my own uneducated first impressions.

Fascinating because of the lore behind them, I suppose - the history, the inherent properties, the ownership timeline, that kind of thing. And how they are viewed today - do people still believe in them, what relevance do they have, etc.
 
Thanks for such an interesting topic. I think we "moderns," applying as we tend to our own sensibilities to the past, may see some relics as macabre, whether bones or blood. After seeing the movie Becket (Richard Burton playing the former chancellor/archbishop and Peter O'Toole, marvelously, as Henry II), I developed a lifelong interest in the Plantaganets and in Becket himself. We all know about Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and various pilgrimages, but more recently, the bloody tunic purportedly worn when Becket was murdered on the altar has made the news: Thomas Becket’s bloody tunic returns to Canterbury 850 years after he died | World news | The Guardian
 
jmotivator said:
From the Catholic perspective it has always seemed to me to be no different than, say, a signed piece of sports memorabilia. The Catholic Church sees itself as the one true church that has a history and a lineage that dates back to the beginning of the faith, so for them the relics are a connection to the Church's history. In fact, not that I think about it, the longer a branch of faith has existed, the more likely they seem to be to embrace the significance of religious artifacts because, unlike other faiths, they've been around long enough to have amassed them.

Edit: I mean, there are sects of Christianity that actively oppose relics as "iconography", but they all seem to accept the Bible as a form of reliquary.
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Do I understand correctly that Catholics believe, or used to believe, that these relics were imbued with power? Are there any significant ones that appeal to you, that you've actually gone out of your way to see / visit?

There does seem to be a difference in how churches view them - I'm Lutheran, so one of the oldest protestant denominations, yet we haven't really got any kind of relics. By Catholic definition, must a relic tie to Biblical times, or to a Saint? (Lutheran's acknowledge saints, but have a bit of a different relationship with them.. :) )
 
OlNate said:
Do I understand correctly that Catholics believe, or used to believe, that these relics were imbued with power? Are there any significant ones that appeal to you, that you've actually gone out of your way to see / visit?
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Not really? In a way, yes, at least in the ancient church, but they acted more as a reflection of God's grace, a reminder of God's supremacy. The "power" that a relic would have would have been purely inspirational in the face of hardship. For instance, the ancient rite of exorcism is a plea to God to act directly on the soul of the possessed, any relic used in such a ritual is meant as a focus for inspiration.

There does seem to be a difference in how churches view them - I'm Lutheran, so one of the oldest protestant denominations, yet we haven't really got any kind of relics. By Catholic definition, must a relic tie to Biblical times, or to a Saint? (Lutheran's acknowledge saints, but have a bit of a different relationship with them.. :) )
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Yes? I have to say I am not entirely up to speed on all things Catholic.. and enjoy discussion of experience in these cases more than a google search. I do know that every consecrated Catholic altar sits atop a relic of a saint. Where most Christian sects build their churches symbolically on the shared history of the faith, Catholics do it literally.
 
nota bene said:
Thanks for such an interesting topic. I think we "moderns," applying as we tend to our own sensibilities to the past, may see some relics as macabre, whether bones or blood. After seeing the movie Becket (Richard Burton playing the former chancellor/archbishop and Peter O'Toole, marvelously, as Henry II), I developed a lifelong interest in the Plantaganets and in Becket himself. We all know about Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and various pilgrimages, but more recently, the bloody tunic purportedly worn when Becket was murdered on the altar has made the news: Thomas Becket’s bloody tunic returns to Canterbury 850 years after he died | World news | The Guardian
Click to expand...

Very interesting stuff. I've often thought that if granted a week of full access to a generally off limits place, I would spend it in the Vatican, with a team of translators and historians.
 
jmotivator said:
Not really? In a way, yes, at least in the ancient church, but they acted more as a reflection of God's grace, a reminder of God's supremacy. The "power" that a relic would have would have been purely inspirational in the face of hardship. For instance, the ancient rite of exorcism is a plea to God to act directly on the soul of the possessed, any relic used in such a ritual is meant as a focus for inspiration.



Yes? I have to say I am not entirely up to speed on all things Catholic.. and enjoy discussion of experience in these cases more than a google search. I do know that every consecrated Catholic altar sits atop a relic of a saint. Where most Christian sects build their churches symbolically on the shared history of the faith, Catholics do it literally.
Click to expand...

One of the main reasons why sometimes it's good to get away from the Google searches is that you never know what will be truly relevant, or what might be missed - for example, thanks for the bit about every consecrated Catholic altar sits atop a relic of a saint, I did not know that, and doubt that it would be at the top of a google search to notice. Thanks for that! It gives me new things to Google. :)

Of course, when I think of relics, I tend to think in terms of what I've seen out of Hollywood, not having any firsthand exposure. I wonder if relics weren't meant to make religion more inclusive - a lot of them come from times when mass was said in Latin, and a lot of folks couldn't read. Perhaps having a physical item to tie to the story made it more accessible, the "imbued power" narrative being an unexpected boon...

It is also interesting to note that many world religions acknowledge relics. Time put a top 10 relics story together (below), and while the majority are Christian, we see Muslim and Buddhist relics represented as well:

Complete List - Top 10 Religious Relics - TIME
 
OlNate said:
One of the main reasons why sometimes it's good to get away from the Google searches is that you never know what will be truly relevant, or what might be missed - for example, thanks for the bit about every consecrated Catholic altar sits atop a relic of a saint, I did not know that, and doubt that it would be at the top of a google search to notice. Thanks for that! It gives me new things to Google. :)

Of course, when I think of relics, I tend to think in terms of what I've seen out of Hollywood, not having any firsthand exposure. I wonder if relics weren't meant to make religion more inclusive - a lot of them come from times when mass was said in Latin, and a lot of folks couldn't read. Perhaps having a physical item to tie to the story made it more accessible, the "imbued power" narrative being an unexpected boon...

It is also interesting to note that many world religions acknowledge relics. Time put a top 10 relics story together (below), and while the majority are Christian, we see Muslim and Buddhist relics represented as well:

Complete List - Top 10 Religious Relics - TIME
Click to expand...

The church I attended (St. Leo's) as a child, and whose Catechism classes I attended, had a finger of a saint (St. Leo) buried under the alter.

Or, at least that the what the monsignor told us kids, but he was known to play jokes on us and might have told us that for the Eeeeew factor.


Also, it's weird to see a "Top 10" list of religious relics. As rated by who?
 
OlNate said:
It is also interesting to note that many world religions acknowledge relics. Time put a top 10 relics story together (below), and while the majority are Christian, we see Muslim and Buddhist relics represented as well:

Complete List - Top 10 Religious Relics - TIME
Click to expand...

(Cont'd) I mean, that list is weird in that some of those things are only rumored to still exist... so if that is the cut off, then where is the Ark of the Covenant? I mean, that is THE central relic of the world's biggest religions and the foundation of all Abrahamic religions.

But then, that is also maybe a hint at the sort of "power" that a relic would hold in the heart of a believer. In one aspect, a relic is a justification for faith, a connection between the abstracted faith an the material world. Most of the life of the faithful is spent in some level of doubt. Anything that eases that has power.

Just consider the shudder through the world if, for instance, the Shroud of Turin could be dated as authentic to the time of Jesus, or we found and authenticated the Ark of the Covenant and it fit the Biblical description precisely. There is a sort of power intrinsic in that kind of vindication of the faithful.
 
jmotivator said:
The church I attended (St. Leo's) as a child, and whose Catechism classes I attended, had a finger of a saint (St. Leo) buried under the alter.

Or, at least that the what the monsignor told us kids, but he was known to play jokes on us and might have told us that for the Eeeeew factor.


Also, it's weird to see a "Top 10" list of religious relics. As rated by who?
Click to expand...


lol...I know, right? Time Magazine, I guess - this is what you get when you Google...hehe... It does give a little background on them, though.

I seem to remember a very early childhood memory of the priest in our town talking about their relic - I would have like 5 or 6, and it would have been a discussion between him and my parents....that I even remember it should indicate the impact it made, and probably explains the curiosity I have around them today. I can't remember what the relic was, but I recall thinking that it was so cool that something tied to Jesus ended up in our little northern Ontario cottage community.

My family actually bought the convent, and turned it into a bed and breakfast...I believe there were some ritual items that had to be properly removed from there, as well - of course, this is drawing from family stories and vague memories.
 
When I was a kid, they brought a tiny fragment of the True Cross to our church during mass one week. It was in a small glass case in the center of a larger ceremonial cross. I still remember how it felt to be close to something like that. It was pretty impressive.
 
jmotivator said:
(Cont'd) I mean, that list is weird in that some of those things are only rumored to still exist... so if that is the cut off, then where is the Ark of the Covenant? I mean, that is THE central relic of the world's biggest religions and the foundation of all Abrahamic religions.

But then, that is also maybe a hint at the sort of "power" that a relic would hold in the heart of a believer. In one aspect, a relic is a justification for faith, a connection between the abstracted faith an the material world. Most of the life of the faithful is spent in some level of doubt. Anything that eases that has power.

Just consider the shudder through the world if, for instance, the Shroud of Turin could be dated as authentic to the time of Jesus, or we found and authenticated the Ark of the Covenant and it fit the Biblical description precisely. There is a sort of power intrinsic in that kind of vindication of the faithful.
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There is - any yet, I wonder if any of these items will ever be found to be provable in the context of what they say they are. Would faith be required if we had Christ's DNA, or if we could tie a garment back to a Biblical event somehow? It's fitting, I think, that relics require a bit of faith. Ultimately we await a vindication that will be a lot clearer than what we see in relics.

(This is not an attempt to discredit or devalue relics - just chatting).

Still, yes, finding the Ark would be amazing. Not required for faith, but amazing.
 
Helix said:
When I was a kid, they brought a tiny fragment of the True Cross to our church during mass one week. It was in a small glass case in the center of a larger ceremonial cross. I still remember how it felt to be close to something like that. It was pretty impressive.
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Do you remember when that was? I ask, because I seem to remember something like that coming near us as well. I lived close to Midland, Ontario, which is home to the Saint Marie Among The Hurons Cathedral, a place of pilgrimage - the Pope visited it back in the mid 80's. Was it around that time that you saw the True Cross fragment?
 
OlNate said:
Do you remember when that was? I ask, because I seem to remember something like that coming near us as well. I lived close to Midland, Ontario, which is home to the Saint Marie Among The Hurons Cathedral, a place of pilgrimage - the Pope visited it back in the mid 80's. Was it around that time that you saw the True Cross fragment?
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Yes, I think that it was in the mid 1980s. This was in the Midwest. I'm not sure how many fragments there are. I'd have to look it up.
 
Helix said:
Yes, I think that it was in the mid 1980s. This was in the Midwest. I'm not sure how many fragments there are. I'd have to look it up.
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Hmmm...could be it was on tour - I believe these things make the rounds from time to time. I was lucky to have that cathedral in such a remote place (got the name wrong, but it just came back to me - it was called the Martyr's Shrine, a Jesuit mission I believe), we got a lot of high profile Catholic events through the years...and even though I'm not Catholic, our school thought it was important enough (not a Catholic school) to get us out to see it.
 
OlNate said:
Hmmm...could be it was on tour - I believe these things make the rounds from time to time. I was lucky to have that cathedral in such a remote place (got the name wrong, but it just came back to me - it was called the Martyr's Shrine, a Jesuit mission I believe), we got a lot of high profile Catholic events through the years...and even though I'm not Catholic, our school thought it was important enough (not a Catholic school) to get us out to see it.
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I think that it was on tour, but I don't remember the details. It has been a long time ago. My mom might remember.

Our church was and is a grand structure in a small town. We started attending when I was a little kid. I was an altar boy, and liked it a lot.
 
Helix said:
I think that it was on tour, but I don't remember the details. It has been a long time ago. My mom might remember.

Our church was and is a grand structure in a small town. We started attending when I was a little kid. I was an altar boy, and liked it a lot.
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Did you have a relic at your church?
 
Helix said:
When I was a kid, they brought a tiny fragment of the True Cross to our church during mass one week. It was in a small glass case in the center of a larger ceremonial cross. I still remember how it felt to be close to something like that. It was pretty impressive.
Click to expand...

At least it wasn't the Holy Prepuce!


OM
 
OlNate said:
I've always been fascinated by religious relics - the idea of a physical item that is somehow connected to a deity.
Click to expand...



Me, too.

I do not believe in "God," but I envy those people who do.

I think that it must be very comforting to believe that "God" cares for you.

So having a relic (e.g., a bone from a saint) can give one spiritual strength that one might not have otherwise. It is a constant reminder that "God" is at your side in all circumstances.



Besides, having a collection of relics is just plain interesting.

(I used to have a few minor relics-- for example, a cloth that was touched to the bones of a saint -- but I became disillusioned for some reason and threw them away in disappointment.)


Best wishes
 
OlNate said:
Did you have a relic at your church?
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i'm not sure. the altar is quite ornate, and has compartments. i don't recall seeing another relic there, however.
 
OlNate said:
Very interesting stuff. I've often thought that if granted a week of full access to a generally off limits place, I would spend it in the Vatican, with a team of translators and historians.
Click to expand...

Knowing what's below, just standing there would be amazing. I'm not sure how many there are, but one Vatican has been built on top of another through the ages. Back in the '80's I read a book entitled The Bones of St. Peter that detailed the discovery by an Italian archaeologist who had discovered a graffiti wall with a symbol that looked like the letter P and, at the bottom, rather like a key, and this led to the discovery of some of St. Peter's bones.
 
Helix said:
Yes, I think that it was in the mid 1980s. This was in the Midwest. I'm not sure how many fragments there are. I'd have to look it up.
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In another forum, a long time ago, there was a woman that had Ceberal Palsy. Her mother took her to Europe to visit many shrines to a specific Saint to get her healed of it. She mentioned that the holy relic of this Saint was her left hand, and out of the different shrines to this saint, there were over a half dozen of her left hands out there.
 
RAMOSS said:
In another forum, a long time ago, there was a woman that had Ceberal Palsy. Her mother took her to Europe to visit many shrines to a specific Saint to get her healed of it. She mentioned that the holy relic of this Saint was her left hand, and out of the different shrines to this saint, there were over a half dozen of her left hands out there.
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Human beings don't change; where there is an opportunity, there will, unfortunately, be an opportunist. In Chaucerian days drops of blood, purportedly Thomas Becket's, were hawked all along the pilgrimage way. Quite a business too. And etc.
 
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