False Prophets and Failed Prophesies

And again...

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.

Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.

Click to expand...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989228

Elvira said:

And again...



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989228

Click to expand...

again.......LIES!


Simply digging in, insisting what's been debunked......... is pathetic! Furthermore, it's repeating a lie!
They've prophesied!


HOW CAN LIES BE FROM THE BIBLICAL GOD?

"By their fruits you will recognize them!" Does that ring a bell?




Chapter 8

“Spirit of Life from God Entered into Them”

14 The time had now gone into the fifth year of the “conclusion of the system of things.” Jesus’ prediction, in Matthew 24:14, still had to be fulfilled: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) Christendom, with the bloodstains of world war, was not disposed or clean enough to fulfill that prophecy. What, then, was there to do? The spirit of God Almighty needed to go into action. It did so, not in behalf of bloodguilty Christendom, but in behalf of the seemingly ‘dead’ Kingdom witnesses. True to the picture in Revelation 11:11, “spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” The spring of the postwar year 1919 was the time for this revitalizing of them.

16 This revelation by the “spirit of the truth” put new life into the Kingdom preaching of the witnesses.

19 It was for such worldwide Kingdom preaching that “spirit of life from God” had entered into the suppressed witnesses in 1919 C.E.

20 That loudly proclaimed announcement, “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever,” deserves to be reechoed now on earth by Jehovah’s anointed witnesses. He took up his kingship of the world at the close of the Gentile Times in 1914.

The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching. Why argue about it?

23 After twelve years of such prophesying about God’s kingdom, the anointed remnant had become better informed upon Jehovah God, the heavenly Source of the outpoured spirit.

24 So it was no mere coincidence that on Sunday, July 26, 1931, at the international convention of the International Bible Students Association at Columbus, Ohio, the many thousands of conventioners wholeheartedly adopted a resolution for themselves to be called by a meaningful, Scriptural name. The name that the conventioners embraced by adopting the Resolution was “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” After the action taken at the international convention in Columbus, the congregations of the International Bible Students Association around the globe adopted a similar resolution. Thereby they declared themselves to be Jehovah’s Witnesses.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101976038#h=23




Lies are inspired by the devil - Satan!

Leading people astray.....leading people away from God..... through lies......that's the devil at work!



Can you please just pause for a few minutes and ponder on this:


John 8:44

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

tosca1 said:

again.......LIES!


Simply digging in, insisting what's been debunked......... is pathetic! Furthermore, it's repeating a lie!


HOW CAN LIES BE FROM THE BIBLICAL GOD?



Chapter 8

“Spirit of Life from God Entered into Them”

14 The time had now gone into the fifth year of the “conclusion of the system of things.” Jesus’ prediction, in Matthew 24:14, still had to be fulfilled: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) Christendom, with the bloodstains of world war, was not disposed or clean enough to fulfill that prophecy. What, then, was there to do? The spirit of God Almighty needed to go into action. It did so, not in behalf of bloodguilty Christendom, but in behalf of the seemingly ‘dead’ Kingdom witnesses. True to the picture in Revelation 11:11, “spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” The spring of the postwar year 1919 was the time for this revitalizing of them.

16 This revelation by the “spirit of the truth” put new life into the Kingdom preaching of the witnesses.

19 It was for such worldwide Kingdom preaching that “spirit of life from God” had entered into the suppressed witnesses in 1919 C.E.

20 That loudly proclaimed announcement, “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever,” deserves to be reechoed now on earth by Jehovah’s anointed witnesses. He took up his kingship of the world at the close of the Gentile Times in 1914.

The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching. Why argue about it?

23 After twelve years of such prophesying about God’s kingdom, the anointed remnant had become better informed upon Jehovah God, the heavenly Source of the outpoured spirit.

24 So it was no mere coincidence that on Sunday, July 26, 1931, at the international convention of the International Bible Students Association at Columbus, Ohio, the many thousands of conventioners wholeheartedly adopted a resolution for themselves to be called by a meaningful, Scriptural name. The name that the conventioners embraced by adopting the Resolution was “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” After the action taken at the international convention in Columbus, the congregations of the International Bible Students Association around the globe adopted a similar resolution. Thereby they declared themselves to be Jehovah’s Witnesses.




https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101976038#h=23

Click to expand...

How can you believe lies? The immortal soul, hellfire, the trinity, holidays such as Christmas and Easter bringing honor to God...all lies...so don't talk to me about lies until you remove your own rafter...

Elvira said:

How can you believe lies? The immortal soul, hellfire, the trinity, holidays such as Christmas and Easter bringing honor to God...all lies...so don't talk to me about lies until you remove your own rafter...

Click to expand...

What you claim was a lie. Don't try to deflect. Those issues you mentioned aren't unbiblical!

As for Christmas and Easter - you know Christians celebrate the SIGNIFICANCE of Jesus' birth and death/Resurrection (NOT THE DATES!) The world hijacked those celebrations and turned them into something else!

To use them and distort what they mean to Christianity, is another dishonest attempt to undermine Christianity! Boy.....how come your arguments seem more in-lined with the propaganda of Satan?


You just regurgitate what JW propaganda tells you - you're not using your critical thinking!

I got that quote from JW.org! Look at the link! Go there and see for yourself!




JW has issued so many lies - they're trying to say they're prophets, and at the same time
they're saying they're not! :lol:

JW has two faces! DOUBLE -TONGUED! That's what a liar is!


1 Tim 3:8
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

tosca1 said:

again.......LIES!


Simply digging in, insisting what's been debunked......... is pathetic! Furthermore, it's repeating a lie!

Click to expand...

Elvira said:

How can you believe lies? The immortal soul, hellfire, the trinity, holidays such as Christmas and Easter bringing honor to God...all lies...so don't talk to me about lies until you remove your own rafter...

Click to expand...

lol...how you ladies making out?

You understand you guys are essentially comparing different religions, right? JW is NOT a Christian denomination, despite liberally borrowing our brand and our text. Christianity is NOT a JW denomination. The differences are too great to be considered the same, they are not different denominations, they are just totally different. You both ought to save your energy, accept each other's differences, and, if you need to be ugly, just sit back and enjoy the fact that each side gets to say the other is going to Hell (or whatever happens to naughty people in the JW world), and get on with your life. :lol:

I love both you ladies, but I also know both of you well enough to know neither of you are gonna blink here. What you're calling lies are actually each other's truths. Since these are all faith issues, and neither of you can back any of this up to the satisfaction of an atheist, maybe just, ya know, live and let live?

Or fight to the death over it, that's fun too...

tosca1 said:

I got that from JW.org! Look at the link! Go there and see for yourself!

Click to expand...

Deflection I see...Give me any day good, honest hearted people who's one desire is to serve God in the truest sense possible, who make honest mistakes but are willing to admit when they're wrong or need to revise/clarify their beliefs, who cling to true Bible teachings as closely as humanly possible, over fake Christians who obstinately cling to their fake traditions of men which bring dishonor to God, even when confronted with the truth of those traditions...we are not perfect but God knows our motives are pure...

Elvira said:

Deflection I see...Give me any day good, honest hearted people who's one desire is to serve God in the truest sense possible, who make honest mistakes but are willing to admit when they're wrong or need to revise/clarify their beliefs, who cling to true Bible teachings as closely as humanly possible, over fake Christians who obstinately cling to their fake traditions of men which bring dishonor to God, even when confronted with the truth of those traditions...we are not perfect but God knows our motives are pure...

Click to expand...

Sorry, as a non Christian, you don't get to call out fake Christians. I promise, I won't call out fake JW's.

OlNate said:

lol...how you ladies making out?

You understand you guys are essentially comparing different religions, right? JW is NOT a Christian denomination, despite liberally borrowing our brand and our text. Christianity is NOT a JW denomination. The differences are too great to be considered the same, they are not different denominations, they are just totally different. You both ought to save your energy, accept each other's differences, and, if you need to be ugly, just sit back and enjoy the fact that each side gets to say the other is going to Hell (or whatever happens to naughty people in the JW world), and get on with your life. :lol:

I love both you ladies, but I also know both of you well enough to know neither of you are gonna blink here. What you're calling lies are actually each other's truths. Since these are all faith issues, and neither of you can back any of this up to the satisfaction of an atheist, maybe just, ya know, live and let live?

Or fight to the death over it, that's fun too...

Click to expand...

Let's not make light of a very serious discussion...... please.

Elvira said:

Deflection I see...Give me any day good, honest hearted people who's one desire is to serve God in the truest sense possible, who make honest mistakes but are willing to admit when they're wrong or need to revise/clarify their beliefs, who cling to true Bible teachings as closely as humanly possible, over fake Christians who obstinately cling to their fake traditions of men which bring dishonor to God, even when confronted with the truth of those traditions...we are not perfect but God knows our motives are pure...

Click to expand...

I stand by what evidence I gave you. You can't seem to give any meaningful counter. Of course, you can't.

How can you and JW - and all your supposedly excellent teachers - even imagine to go head-to-head
with the Scriptures?

You'll never win. JW is exposed for what it is. Satan will never win.

tosca1 said:

I stand by what evidence I gave you. You can't seem to give any meaningful counter. Of course, you can't.
How can you and JW - and all your supposedly excellent teachers go head-to-head with the Scriptures?
You'll never win. JW is exposed for what it is.

Click to expand...

I can and I have...lol...

Elvira said:

I can and I have...lol...

Click to expand...

You can go head-to-head with the Scriptures and win? Is that right?
You think you did? Well I'm not surprised about what you just claimed.

That's what the devil thought so, too.

tosca1 said:

Let's not make light of a very serious discussion...... please.

Click to expand...

I make light of every situation, that's kinda my thing. But I'm right this time. There's nothing to be gained by beating a dead horse. Neither of you will save the other, when you're both convinced you're already saved. With that in mind, how is this anything more pointless slugfest, for the sake of having a slugfest? Not a good look for either religion...

OlNate said:

I make light of every situation, that's kinda my thing. But I'm right this time. There's nothing to be gained by beating a dead horse. Neither of you will save the other, when you're both convinced you're already saved. With that in mind, how is this anything more pointless slugfest, for the sake of having a slugfest? Not a good look for either religion...

Click to expand...

Well, it's good that you give your opinion about the issue.
If I have something more to say, I'll say it. I don't think I'm done, yet.
Just like the other thread about the Trinity (God Himself will ....), if I come across something related to the topic, I'd be back and adding.

This thread isn't just for Elvira, you know.

Every discussion here, is a discussion of faith, not facts. So everybody gets to have their own faith. So what ?

tosca1 said:

Well, it's good that you give your opinion about the issue.
If I have something more to say, I'll say it. I don't think I'm done, yet.
Just like the other thread about the Trinity (God Himself will ....), if I come across something related to the topic, I'd be back and adding.

This thread isn't just for Elvira, you know.

Click to expand...

Right on....I guess. It just feels like this thread is a bashing JW thread, which seems rather pointless, and seems to be more about you than glorifying God, as bash threads do not glorify God...hehe.... And given that the JW are not Christians, this is the same as creating a thread about why Jews and Muslims are wrong...which of course everyone would know you would say, since they are different religions, despite sharing some similarities with ours. It all seems rather masturbatory to me.

I'd be interested in hearing about false prophets who claim to be Christians. JW may claim to be Christian, since these are some pretty good coattails to ride for a number of reasons, but clearly they are not, given how they have created their own version of the Bible, and don't acknowledge key elements of what it means to be Christian.

Any Christian false prophesy stories to share? In all honesty I find those very interesting, since it takes a certain kind of person to not only come up with a false prophesy, but to elevate it to the point where we would know about it.

OlNate said:

Right on....I guess. It just feels like this thread is a bashing JW thread, which seems rather pointless, and seems to be more about you than glorifying God, as bash threads do not glorify God...hehe.... And given that the JW are not Christians, this is the same as creating a thread about why Jews and Muslims are wrong...which of course everyone would know you would say, since they are different religions, despite sharing some similarities with ours. It all seems rather masturbatory to me.

I'd be interested in hearing about false prophets who claim to be Christians. JW may claim to be Christian, since these are some pretty good coattails to ride for a number of reasons, but clearly they are not, given how they have created their own version of the Bible, and don't acknowledge key elements of what it means to be Christian.

Any Christian false prophesy stories to share? In all honesty I find those very interesting, since it takes a certain kind of person to not only come up with a false prophesy, but to elevate it to the point where we would know about it.

Click to expand...

That's your opinion.


Bye, Olnate.

The evidence speaks for itself...

WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?

That which determines a Christian is not adherence to the popularly accepted beliefs of orthodox religious organizations or participation in popular religious practices and religious holidays. Conforming to the popular concept of a Christian does not make a person a Christian. What does is the meeting of Scriptural qualifications. The apostle Peter said: “Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely.” (1 Pet. 2:21) One must follow the example Christ set.

Aside from making himself thoroughly familiar with the Scriptures and living by its right principles, Christ bore witness to the name and purposes of his heavenly Father. “I have made your name known to them and will make it known.” (John 17:26) He stated that his purpose in coming was to bear witness to the truth. (John 18:37) Christians of the first century followed his example by bearing witness to the truth, although this conflicted with the traditional teachings that were popularly accepted in those days.

Those early followers of Christ refused to adopt any of the philosophical beliefs or religious formalisms of the pagan Greeks and Romans. They knew that a Christian’s worship must be pure, undefiled by pagan influence. “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness?”—2 Cor. 6:14.

The kingdom of God was made prominent in the preaching done by Jesus Christ. He laid great stress on it, and told his followers to seek “first the kingdom and [God’s] righteousness.” (Matt. 6:33) This is a requirement that Christians must meet, and, like the early Christians, they must not only seek the Kingdom but talk about it as well.—Matt. 10:7.

As Jesus kept integrity to his heavenly Father under the most trying circumstances so must the person who seeks to be a Christian. When men of the world try to force him to break integrity to God, he must do as Peter said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) A Christian must not break his integrity when persecution comes upon him for refusing to conform to what is popular but contrary to God’s Word. He cannot expect all men to speak well of him. “All those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.”—2 Tim. 3:12; Luke 6:26.

The fruits of the spirit are produced by a Christian at all times, not just one day a week. Regarding these fruits the Bible says: “On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (Gal. 5:22, 23) These qualities must be given more than lip service by the person wanting to be a Christian.

Because Jehovah’s witnesses are unlike orthodox church members in their beliefs and religious activities, some persons may claim that they are not Christians; but let us see if they meet the Scriptural requirements that determine a Christian. This is what counts, not what is popular.

Click to expand...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1960401?q=judaism+beliefs&p=par

<alt>doxygen said:

Jesus (aka God to the trinitarians) made some predictions that did not come to pass. They tend to be brushed away by redefining "death" and other tricks. I would say those were "prophecies"(?)

Mark 9:1 is one...

Click to expand...

Once again, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Your inability to comprehend important Biblical truths, and and your laziness in doing proper due-diligence studies in the Word are part of the reason you're unsaved and an agnostic.

At Matthew 16:28, Jesus tells his disciples: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 9:1 notes, "Until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;"

First, what is the Kingdom of God? Romans 14:17 answers that: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." It is also Jesus being seen in a Kingdom appearance (more on that later).

When did it come with power? In Acts 1:8: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So, the power would come by virtue of the Holy Spirit. When did that happen?

It (the power) happened in Acts chapter two, verses 1-4: "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."

After that, Act 5:12 notes the miracles and power of the disciples: "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people."

But when did some of the disciples see Jesus coming in his kingdom?

"It is that Jesus’ Transfiguration occurs next in the synoptists’ accounts (Mt 17.1-8; Mk 9.2-8; Lk 9.28-36a). Jesus took Peter, James, and John “up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him” (Mt 17.1-3). From a literary perspective, it seems pretty obvious that all three synoptists intended for their readers to understand that Jesus referred to his upcoming Transfiguration when he said some disciples would see him coming in his kingdom before they die."

Did Jesus? Disciples See ?the Son of Man Coming in his Kingdom?? | Kermit Zarley

Elvira said:

The evidence speaks for itself...



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1960401?q=judaism+beliefs&p=par

Click to expand...

JW are not Christians, Elvira. I respect your choice to believe in whatever direction you want, but you don't get to rewrite the Bible, make up your own rules, and then tell the folks who have been Christian since Christ that they are not Christians. JW's are to Christianity what Jews and Muslims are to Christianity - similar, but also completely different. And that's fine. I don't hate Jews or Muslims either. But don't expect us to let an outsider define us. That's not your job, any more than it is mine to define you.

tosca1 said:

That's your opinion.


Bye, Olnate.

Click to expand...

So, no to discussing Christian false prophets? Oh well...that would have been interesting. Enjoy your fight with Elvira, I guess... :shrug:

OlNate said:

(To Tosca) Right on....I guess. It just feels like this thread is a bashing JW thread, which seems rather pointless, and seems to be more about you than glorifying God, as bash threads do not glorify God...hehe.... .

Click to expand...

Come on, Nate. Tosca is trying to save Elvira and expose the lies of the JW's at the same time. It's a very worthwhile exercise.

You should get out and start making disciples of Jesus Christ too. After all, Jesus himself commanded it in Matthew 28:18-19.

A general meaning for a prophet can also include, a divine mouthpiece or spokesman of God.
Jehovah's Witnesses had claimed to be the only and exclusive channel of communication that is used by Jehovah.




3 There is no question that Jehovah God is continuing to bless the global activity of his witnesses, as directed by the “faithful and discreet slave.” This can be seen by the fruits. Remember, Jesus said:
“Every good tree produces fine fruit.” And such righteous fruits are to be seen internationally today in
one people only​—the united, global society of Jehovah’s Witnesses.​


4 No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.​

5 Regarding God’s channel of communication, Jesus said that the “faithful and discreet slave” would provide spiritual nourishment at the right time for all his followers and that he would set this “slave” over all his belongings.

6 This “faithful and discreet slave,” which is associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses, has indeed been used by Jehovah God to guide, strengthen and direct his people. True, since the light shines forth progressively, and because there have been mistakes due to human imperfection and weakness, these Christians have had, on occasion, to reevaluate viewpoints and teachings. But has this not resulted in refinement, to their benefit?

Favored indeed are all those who serve loyally with the “faithful and discreet slave” organization, Jehovah’s visible agent of communication!


https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981889

Logicman said:

Come on, Nate. Tosca is trying to save Elvira and expose the lies of the JW's at the same time. It's a very worthwhile exercise.

You should get out and start making disciples of Jesus Christ too. After all, Jesus himself commanded it in Matthew 28:18-19.

Click to expand...

You don't make disciples this way. :shrug: And you don't make disciples at all, unless the Holy Spirit is behind you. Could be that God has another plan for Elvira...who knows. But beating a dead horse doesn't make disciples, it pushes them away.

And I think lies is too harsh. I mean, I suppose you could call the beliefs of any religion different from yours "lies", but really it's just following different religions. They have as much ability to prove their truths as we do ours.

I don't hate Tos for what she's doing … I think (I hope!) she knows that. We have a complicated relationship, and I tend to get a little flippant and unsubtle, as based on the way she dishes it out, I know she can take it. But I don't think ranting at someone you disagree with over an anonymous political debate forum is going to do anything more than create a greater hurdle. If God wants Elvira to be a Christian, there is nothing anyone will be able to do to prevent that...and if he doesn't, there's nothing anyone can do that will make her. That's how this thing works, as far as I can understand it.

As for what my personal witness entails, that's between me and God, especially on an anonymous debate forum. I hope you understand. I'm a big fan of Matthew 6.

OlNate said:

You don't make disciples this way. :shrug: And you don't make disciples at all, unless the Holy Spirit is behind you. Could be that God has another plan for Elvira...who knows. But beating a dead horse doesn't make disciples, it pushes them away.

And I think lies is too harsh. I mean, I suppose you could call the beliefs of any religion different from yours "lies", but really it's just following different religions. They have as much ability to prove their truths as we do ours.

I don't hate Tos for what she's doing … I think (I hope!) she knows that. We have a complicated relationship, and I tend to get a little flippant and unsubtle, as based on the way she dishes it out, I know she can take it. But I don't think ranting at someone you disagree with over an anonymous political debate forum is going to do anything more than create a greater hurdle. If God wants Elvira to be a Christian, there is nothing anyone will be able to do to prevent that...and if he doesn't, there's nothing anyone can do that will make her. That's how this thing works, as far as I can understand it.

As for what my personal witness entails, that's between me and God, especially on an anonymous debate forum. I hope you understand. I'm a big fan of Matthew 6.

Click to expand...

Have you brought anyone to Christ yet, Nate? You sound pretty old ("OlNate"). Surely you have some "scalps" on your belt, so to speak, right?

Logicman said:

Have you brought anyone to Christ yet, Nate? You sound pretty old ("OlNate"). Surely you have some "scalps" on your belt, so to speak, right?

Click to expand...

As I said, LM, I'm a Matthew 6 kinda guy. If I have been party to anyone becoming a Christian, it was God's power, not mine, that facilitated that. I'm more concerned with not turning anyone away through my human tendency to mess things up.