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Christianity and the Old Testament

Logician Man said:
Where did I say you said they were? I asked a question, did I not? Correct?
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I'm not seeing the point in your cross examination. Can you skip to whatever point it is you are wanting to make?
 
Logicman said:
There's a lot of people who use the Bible to promote bad things. Doesn't make what they do Biblical.

But the fact is, Jesus said to love one's neighbor, and that logically does not include enslaving them.
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But the Bible accepts slavery and even gives instructions on how to treat slaves...and that allowed a lot of Southern Christians to justify slavery in biblical terms. Because after all, if the Bible doesn't condemn slavery then how could it be a bad thing?







.
 
Logicman said:
There's a lot of people who use the Bible to promote bad things. Doesn't make what they do Biblical.

But the fact is, Jesus said to love one's neighbor, and that logically does not include enslaving them.
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At the same time the Bible--both Old and New Testaments--were written within the perspective of a time and culture in which slaves were universally accepted and acceptable. Only certain people were not to be sold or used as slaves and there were clear instructions for how slaves were to be treated and how slaves were to conduct themselves:

Colossians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Leviticus 25:39-43 39If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the LORD.

Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the LORD, not people, 8because you know that the LORD will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. 9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.​

Jesus himself seems to have accepted the existence of slaves as normal and the way things were in his time on Earth:
‘No one can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.’ (Matthew 6:24)

‘A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master; it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master.’ (Matthew 10:24)​

And now when most--not all but most--of the world's civilizations reject slavery as disrespectable, unjust, and evil, it is easy to condemn those of past centuries or past millenia when slavery was both legal and commonplace. But just as things we accept as normal and okay now would be seen as sinful and reprehensible by people of earlier times, and no doubt will be seen that way by people centuries or millenia into the future, we should be careful about imposing our sense of morality on others. Until we live in their world in their time, we are not in a position to judge them even as we study that history and see how civilization has evolved.
 
AlbqOwl said:
At the same time the Bible--both Old and New Testaments--were written within the perspective of a time and culture in which slaves were universally accepted and acceptable. Only certain people were not to be sold or used as slaves and there were clear instructions for how slaves were to be treated and how slaves were to conduct themselves:

Colossians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Leviticus 25:39-43 39If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the LORD.

Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the LORD, not people, 8because you know that the LORD will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. 9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.​

Jesus himself seems to have accepted the existence of slaves as normal and the way things were in his time on Earth:
‘No one can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.’ (Matthew 6:24)

‘A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master; it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master.’ (Matthew 10:24)​

And now when most--not all but most--of the world's civilizations reject slavery as disrespectable, unjust, and evil, it is easy to condemn those of past centuries or past millenia when slavery was both legal and commonplace. But just as things we accept as normal and okay now would be seen as sinful and reprehensible by people of earlier times, and no doubt will be seen that way by people centuries or millenia into the future, we should be careful about imposing our sense of morality on others. Until we live in their world in their time, we are not in a position to judge them even as we study that history and see how civilization has evolved.
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Greetings, AlbqOwl. :2wave:

Very well stated! :thumbs:
 
Moot said:
But the Bible accepts slavery and even gives instructions on how to treat slaves...and that allowed a lot of Southern Christians to justify slavery in biblical terms. Because after all, if the Bible doesn't condemn slavery then how could it be a bad thing?
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Slavery in the Bible was usually one of three things:

1. Voluntary servitude as a way of existence.

2. Punishment by God on sinful men and/or nations for their crimes against God and humanity.

3. A sin - enslaving one's fellow man - that wasn't approved by God.

And from my studies, that's it.

Leviticus 19:18 - "..love your neighbor as yourself..."

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12

Jesus did not approve of slavery. Anybody trying to make Christ into a racist supporter of slavery needs a lot of help with their theology.
 
AlbqOwl said:
At the same time the Bible--both Old and New Testaments--were written within the perspective of a time and culture in which slaves were universally accepted and acceptable. Only certain people were not to be sold or used as slaves and there were clear instructions for how slaves were to be treated and how slaves were to conduct themselves:

Colossians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Leviticus 25:39-43 39If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the LORD.

Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the LORD, not people, 8because you know that the LORD will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. 9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.​

Jesus himself seems to have accepted the existence of slaves as normal and the way things were in his time on Earth:
‘No one can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.’ (Matthew 6:24)

‘A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master; it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master.’ (Matthew 10:24)​

And now when most--not all but most--of the world's civilizations reject slavery as disrespectable, unjust, and evil, it is easy to condemn those of past centuries or past millenia when slavery was both legal and commonplace. But just as things we accept as normal and okay now would be seen as sinful and reprehensible by people of earlier times, and no doubt will be seen that way by people centuries or millenia into the future, we should be careful about imposing our sense of morality on others. Until we live in their world in their time, we are not in a position to judge them even as we study that history and see how civilization has evolved.
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See Post #56. https://www.debatepolitics.com/theo...-testament-post1069235405.html#post1069235405

Jesus chose to change the hearts of men so they wouldn't enslave or mistreat their fellow man.
 
Logicman said:
See Post #56. https://www.debatepolitics.com/theo...-testament-post1069235405.html#post1069235405

Jesus chose to change the hearts of men so they wouldn't enslave or mistreat their fellow man.
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Respectfully disagree. You simply cannot read your 21st Century beliefs, understanding, morality into the First Century reality and expect to be at all accurate. You have to read the Scriptures through the eyes of those who wrote down the words, through the eyes of those who said the words. And when you do that, neither the Old Testiment nor the New Testament provide evidence that slavery was unjust, evil, or uncommon in the world at that time. Rejection of slavery as societal custom would come much much later as civilization has evolved.
 
nota bene said:
To help him or her.
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Do you think it helps anyone when one Christian tells another Christian they are going to hell,simply because they have a different interpretation of biblical scripture than the one doing the condemning because of his/her personal interpretation?
 
Logician Man said:
Do you think it helps anyone when one Christian tells another Christian they are going to hell,simply because they have a different interpretation of biblical scripture than the one doing the condemning because of his/her personal interpretation?
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No, I don't, and I didn't say that.
 
Logician Man said:
Do you think it helps anyone when one Christian tells another Christian they are going to hell,simply because they have a different interpretation of biblical scripture than the one doing the condemning because of his/her personal interpretation?
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It can...and not only are we told to do so, but we are even instructed how.

Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
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That said, however, there are a lot of denominations out there that think they have it right while everyone else is wrong, and like to hand out hell sentences a little more freely than they should. The above scripture has more to do with resolving personal issues, and was written when the dogma was fresh, without all the additions and interpretations and, let's face it, bastardizations, that came later. Folks should be very careful these days when passing judgement on others. Best to focus on the fundamental truths, and leave the judging to God.
 
nota bene said:
No, I don't, and I didn't say that.
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I didn't mean at all to imply you said that,nota...but it does happen within the Christian community. I just don't see how any of that helps anyone.
 
OlNate said:
It can...and not only are we told to do so, but we are even instructed how.



That said, however, there are a lot of denominations out there that think they have it right while everyone else is wrong, and like to hand out hell sentences a little more freely than they should. The above scripture has more to do with resolving personal issues, and was written when the dogma was fresh, without all the additions and interpretations and, let's face it, bastardizations, that came later. Folks should be very careful these days when passing judgement on others. Best to focus on the fundamental truths, and leave the judging to God.
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Jesus is reported to have also cautioned people: Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. ('raca' translated into English roughly meant worthless or empty.)

Do we take that literally, especially considering that he Himself is reported to have said to the Pharisees: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." (NIV Matthew 23:13)

Or do we take it as I think he meant it: Those who are so full of hate, contempt, and consider themselves to be so morally superior that they demonize, mock, belittle, hurt, harm, destroy another person will not be seen as good or just either by God or by good people. The only people who will admire them are the self-righteous hypocrites and/or 'brood of vipers' like themselves.

And of course we will be angry at the actions of another--he himself became angry at the temple merchants who were scamming the people and he drove them out. But if we carry that anger to the point of ridiculing, mocking, belittling, or worse trying to harm or destroy the person's reputation or means of livelihood etc., just to make ourselves feel better, we are into serious sin with consequences.
 
Logician Man said:
I didn't mean at all to imply you said that,nota...but it does happen within the Christian community. I just don't see how any of that helps anyone.
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I don't either.
 
Logician Man said:
Many of the Christians I've discussed this with have stated they have a difficult time rectifying a 'fair,just,and loving God' killing close to 30 million human beings,many of which were little children and babies,simply because a bite of a piece of fruit was eaten.They aren't buying the 'He's the artist.He can do what he damn well pleases with his own painting.'
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That doesn't sound like a Christian saying that, it sounds more like a non-believer saying that.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Jesus is reported to have also cautioned people: Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. ('raca' translated into English roughly meant worthless or empty.)

Do we take that literally, especially considering that he Himself is reported to have said to the Pharisees: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." (NIV Matthew 23:13)

Or do we take it as I think he meant it: Those who are so full of hate, contempt, and consider themselves to be so morally superior that they demonize, mock, belittle, hurt, harm, destroy another person will not be seen as good or just either by God or by good people. The only people who will admire them are the self-righteous hypocrites and/or 'brood of vipers' like themselves.

And of course we will be angry at the actions of another--he himself became angry at the temple merchants who were scamming the people and he drove them out. But if we carry that anger to the point of ridiculing, mocking, belittling, or worse trying to harm or destroy the person's reputation or means of livelihood etc., just to make ourselves feel better, we are into serious sin with consequences.
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I want to drop a comment here, because I want to come back to it, as I'm not sure I'll have the time right now to respond fully right now...you've actually presented me with something I give a lot of thought to.

I'm a WWJD kind of dude...though I probably come up with a different answer based on my understanding than most. I like the Christ that upended the tables of the merchants in the temple. I like the Christ that chose to turn water into wine at a party where everyone was already hammered to be his first recorded miracle. I like the Christ that wept at the death of Lazarus, and begged for the cup to be taken from him in Gethsemane. I like the Christ that chose fisherman and tax collectors and prostitutes to hang out with. The puritan image that many churches want to mold their followers into doesn't seem to match the Biblical Christ that I've read about. As usual, it's a little more complicated than that. :)
 
Logician Man said:
Do you think it helps anyone when one Christian tells another Christian they are going to hell,simply because they have a different interpretation of biblical scripture than the one doing the condemning because of his/her personal interpretation?
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That would all depend on whether they were correct in their interpretation or not... as is the case with all advice.
 
OlNate said:
I want to drop a comment here, because I want to come back to it, as I'm not sure I'll have the time right now to respond fully right now...you've actually presented me with something I give a lot of thought to.

I'm a WWJD kind of dude...though I probably come up with a different answer based on my understanding than most. I like the Christ that upended the tables of the merchants in the temple. I like the Christ that chose to turn water into wine at a party where everyone was already hammered to be his first recorded miracle. I like the Christ that wept at the death of Lazarus, and begged for the cup to be taken from him in Gethsemane. I like the Christ that chose fisherman and tax collectors and prostitutes to hang out with. The puritan image that many churches want to mold their followers into doesn't seem to match the Biblical Christ that I've read about. As usual, it's a little more complicated than that. :)
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Yes. You are describing the Christ I know who meets and loves people as who they are now and who they can become rather than what they once were. The Apostle Paul underscored it that we are all sinners and have fallen short but we all can be better. The Bible is full of examples of God taking very flawed people and accomplishing great things through them. Who are we to look down our noses at anybody?
 
Elvira said:
There were specific reasons for the "Perfect Law" laid out in the Hebrew Scriptures/OT...to understand those reasons is to understand the relation between the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the Christian Greek Scriptures/NT and why the "Perfect Law" was done away with once Christianity was established...



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003440#h=9:0-10:670
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The laws of a perfect being cannot change without making him imperfect.
 
jmotivator said:
That would all depend on whether they were correct in their interpretation or not... as is the case with all advice.
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Who has the correct interpretation, and who has the incorrect interpretation?
 
AlbqOwl said:
Yes. You are describing the Christ I know who meets and loves people as who they are now and who they can become rather than what they once were. The Apostle Paul underscored it that we are all sinners and have fallen short but we all can be better. The Bible is full of examples of God taking very flawed people and accomplishing great things through them. Who are we to look down our noses at anybody?
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Yes...that's the other side of our faith, the side that has been so misrepresented, and forgotten by so many. I suppose our human nature is to weaponize pretty much everything...
 
Anarchon said:
The laws of a perfect being cannot change without making him imperfect.
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True. But we imperfect beings will often misjudge or misinterpret what those laws actually require, and some insist on interpreting them as they want them to be instead of what was intended.
 
Logician Man said:
Who has the correct interpretation, and who has the incorrect interpretation?
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It's not my decision to be made for the individual person. I can give advice on my beliefs and that is all.
 
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