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Christianity and the Old Testament

Skeptic Bob said:
I’m fascinated by how the Christian perspective of the Old Testament has changed in very recent years. When I was growing up as a Christian and for the centuries prior, Christians considered it as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament. But in recent decades that has changed. I wonder why. Is it because the stuff in the Old Testament is just too socially unacceptable in the 21st century and Christians find it is easier to just disown it rather than justify it? It is an interesting evolution.
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Actually the nature of the OT has been hotly debated right during the birth of Christianity as a religion. Marcion was an early church leader, and he had decreed in around 144AD that the god of the OT and Jesus were two different gods, and the latter came into being to save humanity from the former. His gospels preceded the now canonical NT by several hundred years.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I’m fascinated by how the Christian perspective of the Old Testament has changed in very recent years. When I was growing up as a Christian and for the centuries prior, Christians considered it as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament. But in recent decades that has changed. I wonder why. Is it because the stuff in the Old Testament is just too socially unacceptable in the 21st century and Christians find it is easier to just disown it rather than justify it? It is an interesting evolution.
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I think it isn't so much that the Old Testament is not as much a part of the Bible these days, but I think our level of education and Bible scholarship may have improved. So while there are some who take everything in the Old and New Testaments absolutely literally as THEY understand it, others have a somewhat different perspective than the more simplistic understandings of their youth.

Personally, I don't think God cares all that much about our theology, but is far more interested in our relationship with Him and each other.

I do think we cannot fully understand the New Testament without a good grounding in the Old Testament though.
 
Logicman said:
Last time I checked my Bible Jesus never supported any of that.

For instance, what part of "love your neighbor as you love yourself" do you think in any way supports slavery?
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Slave owners often used the Bible to justify slavery. Slaves were considered property, not neighbors or equals.
 
Logicman said:
Jesus fulfilled the Law on the behalf of believers.

The law has four main purposes:

1. It shows us the moral character of God
2. It serves as a tutor to lead us to Christ, by defining what sin is.
3. It is a guide for Christian living.
4. Knowing the law can keep us from suffering the adverse consequences of sin.

The moral laws are still in effect. Adultery, thievery, fornication, gay sex, etc., etc. - all remain sins that must be repented of.

Jesus is Lord!
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Why are only moral laws that we think these days her moral only in effect? Why not the pages and pages of instructions on how to own human slaves so what is pleasing to the Lord in effect anymore? Or all the misogyny? Or dietary restrictions or eve how to wash your utensils? Is telling a father to slit his own son’s throat as a test of his loyalty, like some kind of Mafia boss, or repeated commands to massacres and genocides of entire peoples, including women, children, and even their herd animals, show us the moral character of this God? And that’s your guide Christian living?
 
Moot said:
Slave owners often used the Bible to justify slavery. Slaves were considered property, not neighbors or equals.
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There's a lot of people who use the Bible to promote bad things. Doesn't make what they do Biblical.

But the fact is, Jesus said to love one's neighbor, and that logically does not include enslaving them.
 
ataraxia said:
Why are only moral laws that we think these days her moral only in effect? Why not the pages and pages of instructions on how to own human slaves so what is pleasing to the Lord in effect anymore? Or all the misogyny? Or dietary restrictions or eve how to wash your utensils? Is telling a father to slit his own son’s throat as a test of his loyalty, like some kind of Mafia boss, or repeated commands to massacres and genocides of entire peoples, including women, children, and even their herd animals, show us the moral character of this God? And that’s your guide Christian living?
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You're stuck in the Old Testament. Move on to the New Testament.

It's not only the moral laws that are applicable. Civil and tort laws work. And even though Christians and Jews aren't bound by the dietary laws, they are good to follow for health reasons.

You can't be saved by following the law, but can be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.).

But watch out. All unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). So, there won't be anymore quibblers, atheists, agnostics, Bible-bashing skeptics, or Christ deniers.
 
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Logicman said:
You're stuck in the Old Testament. Move on to the New Testament.
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Why? It wasn't too long ago you guys were killing us with wanting the 10 commandments in every court house. Now we are the ones stuck in the OT? LOL.

It's not only the moral laws that are applicable.
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Oh so they are applicable! So then if I beat my slaves to within an inch of their life, morally I should OK. I only have to make sure they don't die. Then I'll have to sacrifice a ram at the altar or something. Bummer. And raping my female slaves with impunity should be fine too. After all, they are just my property, right?

Civil and tort laws work.
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Why? How do we know what's moral or not if scripture is our only real source of morality? Are you saying we have some other basis for making moral/ethical decisions? If so, what is that?

You can't be saved by following the law, but can be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.).
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OK. But you can't fault me for following the law, can you? After all, you said it shows the high moral standard that God sets for us. Can't go wrong with that, can I?

But watch out. All unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). So, there won't be anymore quibblers, atheists, agnostics, Bible-bashing skeptics, or Christ deniers.
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And of course, Catholics say protestants will be cast there, and Protestants say the same of Catholics. And Muslims say that of both. And everyone thinks the Mormons are going there. Are you sure you are groveling before and expressing your loyalty to the right mob boss,.... er, I mean... God? It doesn't sound like he takes well to lack of loyalty.

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Skeptic Bob said:
I’m fascinated by how the Christian perspective of the Old Testament has changed in very recent years. When I was growing up as a Christian and for the centuries prior, Christians considered it as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament. But in recent decades that has changed. I wonder why. Is it because the stuff in the Old Testament is just too socially unacceptable in the 21st century and Christians find it is easier to just disown it rather than justify it? It is an interesting evolution.
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The Bible tells us that growing numbers of sinners in the last days will become more and more ignorant of Biblical truth as we approach the end.
 
marke said:
The Bible tells us that growing numbers of sinners in the last days will become more and more ignorant of Biblical truth as we approach the end.
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sin is a myth
 
ataraxia said:
Maybe, but jerks and a-holes are very real.
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From the bible ----> " Thou Shalt not Kill ".......From the bible ----> God kills 30 million humans in the O.T., many of them babies,toddlers, and pregnant women.
 
Logician Man said:
sin is a myth
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God gave you a conscience, and people will be judged on it (Romans chapter 2). I doubt anyone 20 or over has a squeaky clean conscience. That's your evidence that sin is real.
 
Logicman said:
God gave you a conscience, and people will be judged on it (Romans chapter 2). I doubt anyone 20 or over has a squeaky clean conscience. That's your evidence that sin is real.
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No Gods have ever been been proven to exist. You may disagree, and that's ok, but it is a fact nonetheless. Religion is a matter of faith,i.e.,acceptance without proof. All holy texts,including the bible, are the claim only...not the proof.
 
Logician Man said:
No Gods have ever been been proven to exist. You may disagree, and that's ok, but it is a fact nonetheless. Religion is a matter of faith,i.e.,acceptance without proof. All holy texts,including the bible, are the claim only...not the proof.
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Uh-huh.... the Lake of Fire awaits your visit.;)
 
Logician Man said:
:lamo Didn't Bob Seger write a very nice song about that lake?
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Yes..... and Uncle Joe ran off to Fire Lake.



Who can blame him?
From the song......
--------------
"Who wants to brave those bronze beauties
Lying in the sun
With their long soft hair falling
Flying as they run
Oh they smile so shy
And they flirt so well
And they lay you down so fast
Till you look straight up and say
Oh Lord
Am I really here at last"

------------------

I'll bet that naughty Uncle Joe isn't sorry at all.
Although.....I hear those 3rd degree burns are very painful.
 
radioman said:
Yes..... and Uncle Joe ran off to Fire Lake.



Who can blame him?
From the song......
--------------
"Who wants to brave those bronze beauties
Lying in the sun
With their long soft hair falling
Flying as they run
Oh they smile so shy
And they flirt so well
And they lay you down so fast
Till you look straight up and say
Oh Lord
Am I really here at last"

------------------

I'll bet that naughty Uncle Joe isn't sorry at all.
Although.....I hear those 3rd degree burns are very painful.
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Five horses of the Apocalypse 'running against the wind' ? :)
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I’m fascinated by how the Christian perspective of the Old Testament has changed in very recent years. When I was growing up as a Christian and for the centuries prior, Christians considered it as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament. But in recent decades that has changed. I wonder why. Is it because the stuff in the Old Testament is just too socially unacceptable in the 21st century and Christians find it is easier to just disown it rather than justify it? It is an interesting evolution.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I see no change. The Old Testament IS as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament... what I have found is that Atheists seem to want to insist on holding Christians to the Old Testament while ignoring that the New Testament exists. The Old Testament doesn't exist in a vacuum for Christians, while it does in the minds of many Atheists. Christians put a lot of weight on the Old Testament as seen through the lens of the teachings Jesus in the New Testament.
 
Logician Man said:
From the bible ----> " Thou Shalt not Kill ".......From the bible ----> God kills 30 million humans in the O.T., many of them babies,toddlers, and pregnant women.
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Well, two points:

1) God isn't "thou", in fact the use of the term "thou" explicitly excludes God from the commandment.

2) Your use of emotionally saddled qualifiers like "babies, toddlers and pregnant women" indicates that you do hold some notion of a fundamental wrongness of it.
 
jmotivator said:
Honestly, I see no change. The Old Testament IS as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament... what I have found is that Atheists seem to want to insist on holding Christians to the Old Testament while ignoring that the New Testament exists. The Old Testament doesn't exist in a vacuum for Christians, while it does in the minds of many Atheists. Christians put a lot of weight on the Old Testament as seen through the lens of the teachings Jesus in the New Testament.
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Why are some Christians telling other Christians they are going to hell ? Interpretation ?
 
Logician Man said:
Why are some Christians telling other Christians they are going to hell ? Interpretation ?
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Why not? The actual punishment in that exchange would be meted out by God. The central point of the teachings of Jesus is that sin is punished by God, not man. That doesn't preclude a Christian from issuing a warning.
 
jmotivator said:
Why not? The actual punishment in that exchange would be meted out by God. The central point of the teachings of Jesus is that sin is punished by God, not man. That doesn't preclude a Christian from issuing a warning.
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Why would a Christian issue a warning to a Christian?
 
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