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[W:164]Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

RAMOSS said:
There are two things that can happen with passages. You can take from a passage, or you read into a passage. Many pieces of wording is ambiguous. For example, if you merely take the phrase 'father, son and holy ghost', without the later explanation of the trinity, you do not see the concept of them being the exactly the same but different. If the concept of Jesus was being God came later, the later interpretation was then imposed on earlier writings where it was not initially intended.

The words do not explicitly support the claimed interpretation, but the claimed interpretation can be imposed on it.
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In other words, the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says. Eisegesis.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
You don't even understand your own questions, how are you going to understand my answers. Get serious.
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Stop chickening out and answer the question. Why did they only condemn Arius until after the council? Why was it decided by vote?
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
Stop chickening out and answer the question. Why did they only condemn Arius until after the council? Why was it decided by vote?
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Left wing debate. Ask a silly question then keep demanding an answer. Are you wondering why Arianism wasn't dispensed with in Jesus' day?
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
Left wing debate. Ask a silly question then keep demanding an answer. Are you wondering why Arianism wasn't dispensed with in Jesus' day?
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Stop chickening out and answer the question. Why did they only condemn Arius until after the council? Why was it decided by vote?
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
I repeat fact because its true. There was no official dogma until the Nicene council, several hundred years after the religion was created....
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What? "official dogma"? You need the first-century deity of Jesus Christ rubber stamped for you two centuries later? It's not clear enough for you in the first-century scriptures themselves?

Here's a primer for you to sweep under your rug:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

https://righterreport.com/2013/03/21/the-deity-of-jesus-christ-in-scripture/

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the deity of Jesus Christ from the first century is no virtue on your part, and makes you appear unreliable as an arbiter of the truth in these debates.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

Logicman said:
What? "official dogma"? You need the first-century deity of Jesus Christ rubber stamped for you two centuries later? It's not clear enough for you in the first-century scriptures themselves?

Here's a primer for you to sweep under your rug:

snip
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More silly lists that prove nothing. The NT was codified years after the council of Nicene, yet Aruis and Origen were openly preaching that Jesus was created by god, and the former was only condemned after a committee vote, while Origen's teachings were accepted and only repudiated centuries afterwards, so you are completely wrong and delusional.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
More silly lists that prove nothing.
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Your denial means nothing. Continuing to ignore the evidences provided you just makes you look weak and insincere.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

Logicman said:
Your denial means nothing. Continuing to ignore the evidences provided you just makes you look weak and insincere.
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Do you deny that Arius and Origen existed?
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
Do you deny that Arius and Origen existed?
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Why continue talking to you? You just kick what you don't like to the curb. You ruined it for people wanting to debate you.

Bye.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

Logicman said:
Why continue talking to you? You just kick what you don't like to the curb. You ruined it for people wanting to debate you.

Bye.
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How am I ruining it? Im stating historical facts here.

It is fact that Origen was teaching that Jesus wasn't divine, and he was a highly respected member of the church. His works were accepted by the church and not repudiated until the 6th century, a full 350 years later. Arius was a bishop, and his teachings said that Jesus was created by god, and it wasnt until the Nicene council that his teachings were repudiated, and they did it by vote.

The fact is their teachings were accepted for a long time, which only meant that there was no official church stance on the divinity of Jesus until after the councils were set up.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
How am I ruining it? Im stating historical facts here.
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Who cares? You want to kick our historical facts to the curb so can we ignore yours. How do you like it?
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
Your silly quotes dont prove anything. It's just a quote. The NT wasnt put together until 367 and not formalized until 692, years after Origen and Arius were permitted to preach their own gospels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
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You're starting to sound more like a JW every day. By the time Arius became a Bishop the Nicene council had already ruled and Arius himself had been exiled. He's no different from any other famous crackpot.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

Ah, the old 'Constantine rewrote the Bible n stuff' rubbish yet again. Never mind all the persecutions of the past, and especially the recent past, where several of the Bishops attending were themselves hideously tortured by the other leaders of the Tetrarchy and the Emperor before them just as bad, and the hundreds of years before that, we're supposed to believe all these Bishops just suddenly upped and let Constantine order them around and had them rewrite it n stuff ... a ludicrous claim, not to mention they would have just been laughed at by most Christians had they tried to do anything like that in the first place, since far too many copies were out there for anybody to get away with that sort of stupidity.

The Orthodoxy existed from the very beginning, and dominated ever since; those who just unhappy and looking for an excuse to rewrite it all themselves are just pots calling the kettle black with that ridiculous premise, and want the fabricate some New Improved Hippie Jesus!!! of some sort, is all. See Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels for another good read on why the 'Gnostic' nonsense of the Bauer school and Elaine Pagel's is a just a laugh as well.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
You're starting to sound more like a JW every day. By the time Arius became a Bishop the Nicene council had already ruled and Arius himself had been exiled. He's no different from any other famous crackpot.
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The NT is damage control for the OT.The bronze aged goat herders who concocted the OT bloodlust went too far,so the message had to be altered and watered down to be more palpitable.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
You're starting to sound more like a JW every day. By the time Arius became a Bishop the Nicene council had already ruled and Arius himself had been exiled. He's no different from any other famous crackpot.
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Wrong. Arius was already bishop by the time of the Nicene council, he even voted during the proceedings. Arianism continued and grew even after his censure because there were a lot of supporters of it within the church- Constantine's son and successor was an Arianist. Arianism was only suppressed forcefully like half a century later.

And you also failed to offer any counter arguments against Origen, who existed long before Arius, and also decreed that Jesus was not wholly divine. He was never censured while he was alive and his views continued to be accepted for hundreds for years.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
Wrong. Arius was already bishop by the time of the Nicene council, he even voted during the proceedings. Arianism continued and grew even after his censure because there were a lot of supporters of it within the church- Constantine's son and successor was an Arianist. Arianism was only suppressed forcefully like half a century later.

And you also failed to offer any counter arguments against Origen, who existed long before Arius, and also decreed that Jesus was not wholly divine. He was never censured while he was alive and his views continued to be accepted for hundreds for years.
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Get your facts straight, even the Wikipedia article doesn't claim that.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
Wrong. Arius was already bishop by the time of the Nicene council, he even voted during the proceedings. Arianism continued and grew even after his censure because there were a lot of supporters of it within the church- Constantine's son and successor was an Arianist. Arianism was only suppressed forcefully like half a century later.

And you also failed to offer any counter arguments against Origen, who existed long before Arius, and also decreed that Jesus was not wholly divine. He was never censured while he was alive and his views continued to be accepted for hundreds for years.
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Pearls. Swine. Cast. Etc....
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
You just moved the goalpost again. We were talking about Arius.
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I mentioned them both, and you cant refute either one.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
I mentioned them both, and you cant refute either one.
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In fact I already did, you are not paying attention.

When I was in Seminary you could lose grade points for citing Wikipedia. You lose credibility every time you cite Wikipedia, and you didn't have that much to begin with. Goodbye.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
In fact I already did, you are not paying attention.

When I was in Seminary you could lose grade points for citing Wikipedia. You lose credibility every time you cite Wikipedia, and you didn't have that much to begin with. Goodbye.
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LOL why dont you refute whats on wikipedia then? And no, nutty religious blogs and opinions dont count. Im not surprised this seminary where youre from denies historical fact and reality for it would shatter the false faith that you believe in.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

PoS said:
LOL why dont you refute whats on wikipedia then? And no, nutty religious blogs and opinions dont count. Im not surprised this seminary where youre from denies historical fact and reality for it would shatter the false faith that you believe in.
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Why don't you learn how to read? The Wikipedia page you cited doesn't say what you claim it says.
 
Re: Early Church beliefs on the divinity of Jesus Christ

it's just me said:
Why don't you learn how to read? The Wikipedia page you cited doesn't say what you claim it says.
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First you claim that wikipedia cant be trusted, now youre using it as a reference to make a false claim? I guess the seminary doesnt teach logic 101. :lol:
 
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