God is the Great "I Am"

This thread is a spin-off of my "Logic 101" thread in the Philosophy forum, but I decided to put this in Theology because it is going to take the "extra credit" lesson from that thread and attempt to relate it directly to God.

In that thread, the "extra credit" lesson was as follows (I have added bold into the text, of which the bold was not in the original post):

Lesson #5: Extra Credit

The foundation of logic is, surprisingly enough, circular reasoning... How is this so??!! Through use of axioms... Why??!! Because axioms themselves are circular reasoning (in other words, P... therefore P)

Now, let that sink in for a second... the foundation of logic is... circular reasoning...

Now, God labels himself as "I am that I am" and "I am" What do those phrases sound like to you? To me, they sound like circular reasoning (P, therefore P). In other words, "I am, therefore I am" ...

Logic is reduced to axioms, which are essentially "I am" claims... So maybe in the exact same way, all of creation (existence) is reduced to God, which is the ultimate "I am" claim?

Just a thought...

I guess not "circular reasoning", but "declarations", given what I've just learned...

But I think the overall point still gets across though... God would then be the "ultimate declaration" of sorts... and only personal agents can "declare" something, as far as I can tell...

gfm7175 said:

This thread is a spin-off of my "Logic 101" thread in the Philosophy forum, but I decided to put this in Theology because it is going to take the "extra credit" lesson from that thread and attempt to relate it directly to God.

In that thread, the "extra credit" lesson was as follows (I have added bold into the text, of which the bold was not in the original post):

Lesson #5: Extra Credit

The foundation of logic is, surprisingly enough, circular reasoning... How is this so??!! Through use of axioms... Why??!! Because axioms themselves are circular reasoning (in other words, P... therefore P)

Now, let that sink in for a second... the foundation of logic is... circular reasoning...

Now, God labels himself as "I am that I am" and "I am" What do those phrases sound like to you? To me, they sound like circular reasoning (P, therefore P). In other words, "I am, therefore I am" ...

Logic is reduced to axioms, which are essentially "I am" claims... So maybe in the exact same way, all of creation (existence) is reduced to God, which is the ultimate "I am" claim?

Just a thought...

Click to expand...

Here is how this trick, and other things like the Trinity and virgin births, work: you say something so bizarre, so outlandish, that all logic, rationality, questioning, or critical thinking have to be suspended. The circuits get fried. Then you can impose your latest opinions with no resistance. That has been the trick of wily politicians and priests through the ages.

"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire

Click to expand...

gfm7175 said:

This thread is a spin-off of my "Logic 101" thread in the Philosophy forum, but I decided to put this in Theology because it is going to take the "extra credit" lesson from that thread and attempt to relate it directly to God.

In that thread, the "extra credit" lesson was as follows (I have added bold into the text, of which the bold was not in the original post):

Lesson #5: Extra Credit

The foundation of logic is, surprisingly enough, circular reasoning... How is this so??!! Through use of axioms... Why??!! Because axioms themselves are circular reasoning (in other words, P... therefore P)

Now, let that sink in for a second... the foundation of logic is... circular reasoning...

Now, God labels himself as "I am that I am" and "I am" What do those phrases sound like to you? To me, they sound like circular reasoning (P, therefore P). In other words, "I am, therefore I am" ...

Logic is reduced to axioms, which are essentially "I am" claims... So maybe in the exact same way, all of creation (existence) is reduced to God, which is the ultimate "I am" claim?

Just a thought...

Click to expand...

Exodus 3:14...right? In order to understand, one has to go back to the origin of words and their meaning...God’s reply in Hebrew was, ʼEhyeh ʼAsher ʼEhyeh'...some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM”...it should be noted that the Hebrew verb hayahʹ, from which the word ʼEhyehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be"...it means “become,” or “prove to be” so the reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others...

The New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE"...Jehovah added,“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”​ Exodus 3:14

This is not meant to change God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality...“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” Exodus 3:15; compare Psalm 135:13; Hosea 12:5

The name Jehovah comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become” so this definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose...only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name...

ataraxia said:

Here is how this trick, and other things like the Trinity and virgin births, work: you say something so bizarre, so outlandish, that all logic, rationality, questioning, or critical thinking have to be suspended. The circuits get fried. Then you can impose your latest opinions with no resistance. That has been the trick of wily politicians and priests through the ages.

Click to expand...

This was a thought for people who already accept God... that's why I put this in the theology forum and not the philosophy or beliefs forums...

Elvira said:

Exodus 3:14...right? In order to understand, one has to go back to the origin of words and their meaning...God’s reply in Hebrew was, ʼEhyeh ʼAsher ʼEhyeh'...some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM”...it should be noted that the Hebrew verb hayahʹ, from which the word ʼEhyehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be"...it means “become,” or “prove to be” so the reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others...

The New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE"...Jehovah added,“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”​ Exodus 3:14

This is not meant to change God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality...“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” Exodus 3:15; compare Psalm 135:13; Hosea 12:5

The name Jehovah comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become” so this definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose...only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name...

Click to expand...

Thanks Elvira. I'm not too familiar with that take, but I have run into it before. That's something I'll have to look into more, as I'm not the most familiar with Hebrew/Greek lexicons. Thanks again!

Elvira said:

Exodus 3:14...right? In order to understand, one has to go back to the origin of words and their meaning...God’s reply in Hebrew was, ʼEhyeh ʼAsher ʼEhyeh'...some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM”...it should be noted that the Hebrew verb hayahʹ, from which the word ʼEhyehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be"...it means “become,” or “prove to be” so the reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others...

The New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE"...Jehovah added,“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”​ Exodus 3:14

This is not meant to change God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality...“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” Exodus 3:15; compare Psalm 135:13; Hosea 12:5

The name Jehovah comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become” so this definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose...only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name...

Click to expand...

Close. It's better translated as 'I will be what I will be'. The pronunciation in Hebrew is supposed to be close, (But not identical) with the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton, so it's sort of a pun. God is going to be what God is..

And then there is this, regarding the Trinity...

“I Am”

AT JOHN 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”?

At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’”

The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:

1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.

Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Joh 8 Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”—The Simple English Bible.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989307?q="I+am+that+I+am"&p=par

I am glad god is dead

gfm7175 said:

This thread is a spin-off of my "Logic 101" thread in the Philosophy forum, but I decided to put this in Theology because it is going to take the "extra credit" lesson from that thread and attempt to relate it directly to God.

In that thread, the "extra credit" lesson was as follows (I have added bold into the text, of which the bold was not in the original post):

Lesson #5: Extra Credit

The foundation of logic is, surprisingly enough, circular reasoning... How is this so??!! Through use of axioms... Why??!! Because axioms themselves are circular reasoning (in other words, P... therefore P)

Now, let that sink in for a second... the foundation of logic is... circular reasoning...

Now, God labels himself as "I am that I am" and "I am" What do those phrases sound like to you? To me, they sound like circular reasoning (P, therefore P). In other words, "I am, therefore I am" ...

Logic is reduced to axioms, which are essentially "I am" claims... So maybe in the exact same way, all of creation (existence) is reduced to God, which is the ultimate "I am" claim?

Just a thought...

Click to expand...

Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Are they still respectable as philosophers or are they outdated and out of style? Linear reasoning of philosophy is to build upon the past philosophers. Circular philosophy is as a circus merry go round to which any participant can jump on board.

Even past philosophers are being 'blasphemed' now days.


Socrates: Pro or anti Government? What 'Government' was he pro or anti towards?
Plato: Pro or anti Government? What 'Government' was he pro or anti towards?
Aristotle: Pro or anti Government? What 'Government' was he pro or anti towards?


Socrates was living in a time when the Government might have been more 'dictatorial' than Democratic. Maybe even Greek and Roman Governments could have been a bit dictatorial than democratic during those times.


So if Socrates was anti Government, he might have been pro democracy anti dictatorial according to the Government he was living under.

When asked "Who shall I say sends me?" In other words, of all the gods, which one are you? God replied "I AM!"

Moses failed an important test, and here is why:

We have names specifically to differentiate each of us from any other.

God is the only one, and therefore he is not in need of a name to differentiate himself from any other. There is no other god than God.

"I AM GOD!" was his answer. Moses then understood. As should all Jews and Christians and Muslims.