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The Apostasy That Wasn't

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it's just me

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The theory goes like this: Just a few centuries after Christ’s death, around the time the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, the true Faith suffered a catastrophic falling-away. The simple truths of the gospel became so obscured by worldliness and pagan idolatry—kicking off the Dark Ages of Catholicism—that Christianity required a complete reboot.

This theory is popular… but it’s also fiction.

This idea of a “Great Apostasy” is one of the cornerstones of American Protestantism, along with Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Islam. Countless millions today profess a faith built on the assumption that the early Church quickly became broken beyond repair, requiring some new prophet or reformer to restore the “pure” teaching of Jesus and the apostles.


https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26720635-the-apostasy-that-wasn-t

One of the other fictional claims is that Constantine created Trinitarian Theology and Catholicism by dictating to the Nicene council on what they should do, that Arius and Eusebius were somehow railroaded, and that the vote of the council was meaningless. This is a great read.
 
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" This theory is popular… but it’s also fiction. "

Ah the word "fiction" as usual.
 
it's just me said:
The theory goes like this: Just a few centuries after Christ’s death, around the time the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, the true Faith suffered a catastrophic falling-away. The simple truths of the gospel became so obscured by worldliness and pagan idolatry—kicking off the Dark Ages of Catholicism—that Christianity required a complete reboot.

This theory is popular… but it’s also fiction.

This idea of a “Great Apostasy” is one of the cornerstones of American Protestantism, along with Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Islam. Countless millions today profess a faith built on the assumption that the early Church quickly became broken beyond repair, requiring some new prophet or reformer to restore the “pure” teaching of Jesus and the apostles.


https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26720635-the-apostasy-that-wasn-t

One of the other fictional claims is that Constantine created Trinitarian Theology and Catholicism by dictating to the Nicene council on what they should do, that Arius and Eusebius were somehow railroaded, and that the vote of the council was meaningless. This is a great read.
Click to expand...

I have a big problem with this statement by a Catholic apologist, who talks about that book by Bennett:


Either the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ — or it is a caricature of the true Church before it.
Click to expand...
https://www.reasonablecatholic.com/the-apostasy-that-wasnt-by-rod-bennett-book-review/




Now, to claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the true church founded by Christ, poses a big question:


Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles.

In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
Click to expand...
https://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html


How can it have been founded by Jesus Christ? That's a legitimate question, isn't it?
 
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tosca1 said:
I have a big problem with this statement by a Catholic apologist, who talks about that book by Bennett:



https://www.reasonablecatholic.com/the-apostasy-that-wasnt-by-rod-bennett-book-review/




Now, to claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the true church founded by Christ, poses a big question:



https://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html


How can it have been founded by Jesus Christ? That's a legitimate question, isn't it?
Click to expand...


Number one, that is why I posted a link to the book, so people could read it. I can't debate you on a book if you don't know what's in it.

Number two, the question that the Reasonable Catholic asked was a rhetorical one, and I have seen this done before. Devin Rose wrote a book called "If Protestantism Is True", and inside the book he explains why it isn't. So forget about that, the writer wasn't looking for an answer, he wants you to read the book, too.

Being Anglican, I am not going to attempt to answer some of the questions specific to Roman Catholicism, but I will say that Apostolic succession is one of the ways we pass on the true faith once delivered. You and I both know that there are people in the world who have introduced destructive heresies into Christianity (which is what the book is about) based on neither the word nor the testimony of the Saints and as a result you have ended up with literally thousands of Protestant type denominations who all want to be the authority on the subject.

In other words, I have no time for the Mormons, who claim to want to restore the church back to it's former glory when they aren't even a part of the Church and never were. There are others, too.

The sacraments were sacraments before the Protestants reduced them to mere rituals, and the rest of that stuff is debatable but that is not the purpose of this thread.

The important thing is, the Church Catholic is not the Roman Catholic church, it's not a denomination, it is THE CHURCH. The Roman Catholic Church is part of the Church Catholic and so is the Lutheran Church and even the Baptist Church is. The problem is not that Jesus didn't start the Church Catholic, the problem is that, aside from cathlophobia being as irrational as it is, 99% of the people I talk to don't even know what the Church is, and the Church is you, me, and the great cloud of witnesses who came before us and who are with us now.

The things Got Questions is complaining about are differences in worship tradition, and you can't kick the RCC out of the Church because they don't do things your way. That's straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Now I'm sure some atheist will want to argue about what I have just written, but does that help?

Do read the book, though, you won't get Catholic cooties.
 
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it's just me said:
The important thing is, the Church Catholic is not the Roman Catholic church, it's not a denomination, it is THE CHURCH.
Click to expand...

yes. At least, that's clarified.
 
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it's just me said:
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This idea of a “Great Apostasy” is one of the cornerstones of American Protestantism, along with Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Islam. Countless millions today profess a faith built on the assumption that the early Church quickly became broken beyond repair, requiring some new prophet or reformer to restore the “pure” teaching of Jesus and the apostles.
Click to expand...
I'm Roman Catholic, but in the spirit of ecumenism. I see New Atheism as the foe, and anti-theism generally, not other Christian denominations. Protestantism no doubt had reason for the protest. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli were sincere smart men and what happened five hundred years ago involving political and theological issues is just a matter of history now, as far as I'm concerned. Christians are Christians, whatever their doctrinal or ritual differences.

Peace.
 
Angel said:
I'm Roman Catholic, but in the spirit of ecumenism. I see New Atheism as the foe, and anti-theism generally, not other Christian denominations. Protestantism no doubt had reason for the protest. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli were sincere smart men and what happened five hundred years ago involving political and theological issues is just a matter of history now, as far as I'm concerned. Christians are Christians, whatever their doctrinal or ritual differences.

Peace.
Click to expand...

This is not a matter of friend or foe, it's a matter of setting the record straight, that we all may be one.
 
In era of the original apostles, water baptism of new believers signified newly acquired faith in Jesus.

After the Roman Empire empowered the Trinitarian cult (380 AD) water baptism came to mean becoming a member of the Trinitarian Roman State "church" which evolved into the cults that comprise modern organized christianish religion.

NOW water baptism is entrance ritual into any of hundreds of water-baptizing clergy-led cults that comprise organized religion.

“COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE” Revelation 18:4 (command - not suggestion)

Jesus’s people have and will continue to come out of the Great Whore
and her family of water-baptized clergy-led Protestant cults.

IOW: Out of ALL the water-baptizing, clergy-led “churches” that comprise organized religion.

And into: JESUS’S CHURCH – THE Church:

Loves one another,
Jesus Christ is the founder,
Each member confess Jesus same as Peter did [Matt 16],
Each member exercises faith in Jesus Christ.
Each member individually led and taught by the NT revealed Word and Spirit of Jesus,
Has leaders (in truth not masters) (1 Cor 12)
Has no earthly HQ,
Has no special day,
Has no “clergy/layman” distinction,
Has no special translation/version of the Bible,
Has no ‘name brand’ (like Lutheran, SDAdentist, LDSaints, Baptist, Messianic Jews etc),
Honors no seminary degrees,
Honors no earthly water baptism,
Has no “church” membership list kept on earth,
Member names are on Jesus’s list in heaven.
Members need only their native tongue.

The Church. The Flock-Body-Bride of Christ.
Wanna be a member? If so, then call on then heed Jesus.
Come out of the many christianish [mostly Trinitarian] cults that evolved from the Roman State “church”

State church of the Roman Empire - Wikipedia SLINGING SEEDS
 
This is exactly the kind of nonsense Rod Bennett was trying to put to bed, you should try reading the book.

You have no proof of any of these claims, it's just equal parts of pride, superstition, and ignorance. Over the years I've found that the reason lay people do this is to exalt themselves, not Christ. They don't want to learn, they want to teach. They don't want to worship, they want to be worshiped themselves. They can't humble themselves and follow, they want to lead.

Pride, Satan's favorite sin.
 
....kicking off the Dark Ages of Catholicism—that Christianity required a complete reboot.

-


Catholicism during the pre Roman Catholic Papacy periods or after?

Catholicism went through at least 2 different stages.. The first with the Bishop of Rome which the Epistle (of) to The Romans is written to and The Roman Catholic Vatican period which was established during the Ottoman Empire. Martin Luther and his 95 Theses was during the time of the Vatican Rome/Papacy, not 1st or 2nd century, etc...
 
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1 Timothy 1:1-2: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord."


The Apostle Paul was of Tarsus.

Where is Tarsus?

Tarsus is a historic city in south-central Turkey, 20 km (12 miles) inland from the Mediterranean. It is part of the Adana-Mersin metropolitan area, the fourth-largest metropolitan area in Turkey with a population of 3 million people. Tarsus forms an administrative district in the eastern part of the Mersin Province and lies in the core of Çukurova region.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus,_Mersin


Cilicia: Cilicia, a Roman province between the Taurus range of mountains and the coast in the south-east corner of Asia Minor, linked up with the province of Syria.

https://biblehub.com/greek/2791.htm


Tarsus: 5018 Tarseús – Tarsus, the leading city in ancient Cilicia (a province between Syria and Asia Minor), located about 10 miles inland from the coast of present-day Turkey.

Tarsus has remained continuously populated for more than 6,000 years, making it (perhaps) the oldest city in the world still in existence.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5018.htm



To where was 1 Timothy written to then if The Apostle Paul was writing to his own son, in the faith?


2 Timothy 1:1-2 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

2To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."


Maybe to the province of Cilicia of Tarsus..


And to even to Cilicia and Tarsus, the Apostle Paul teaches on how to set up deacons and bishops.


Remember that Islam did not come until over 600 years AFTER Christ (J)esus' Ascension. And so the Apostle Paul could not have been of the Islamic Faith given to Muhammad by Revelation.
 
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it's just me said:
The theory goes like this: Just a few centuries after Christ’s death, around the time the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, the true Faith suffered a catastrophic falling-away. The simple truths of the gospel became so obscured by worldliness and pagan idolatry—kicking off the Dark Ages of Catholicism—that Christianity required a complete reboot.

This theory is popular… but it’s also fiction.

This idea of a “Great Apostasy” is one of the cornerstones of American Protestantism, along with Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Islam. Countless millions today profess a faith built on the assumption that the early Church quickly became broken beyond repair, requiring some new prophet or reformer to restore the “pure” teaching of Jesus and the apostles.


https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26720635-the-apostasy-that-wasn-t

One of the other fictional claims is that Constantine created Trinitarian Theology and Catholicism by dictating to the Nicene council on what they should do, that Arius and Eusebius were somehow railroaded, and that the vote of the council was meaningless. This is a great read.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately most of modern 'churches' are dead, it was predicted in the NT
Only the Holy Bible can help us to save our souls
 
Alfons said:
Unfortunately most of modern 'churches' are dead, it was predicted in the NT
Only the Holy Bible can help us to save our souls
Click to expand...

Which churches would you consider "alive"?
 
OlNate said:
Which churches would you consider "alive"?
Click to expand...

Free protestant ones without tough hierarchies and which 24/7 condemned and blamed in MSM
Those who go to streets in preach the World of God

I guess only Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, some Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses and probably a tiny minority of other protestants, catholic and orthodox.
 
Alfons said:
Free protestant ones without tough hierarchies and which 24/7 condemned and blamed in MSM
Those who go to streets in preach the World of God

I guess only Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, some Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses and probably a tiny minority of other protestants, catholic and orthodox.
Click to expand...

What denomination to do you belong to?
 
Alfons said:
Unfortunately most of modern 'churches' are dead, it was predicted in the NT
Only the Holy Bible can help us to save our souls
Click to expand...

No, only Jesus will save our souls.
 
Alfons said:
Unfortunately most of modern 'churches' are dead, it was predicted in the NT
Only the Holy Bible can help us to save our souls
Click to expand...

There is really only one Church, one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. The Church is not a building, a denomination, or a place. There are members of the Church and there are pretenders.
 
it's just me said:
These KJV only people crack me up, they would paint me as a heretic while using our Bible.
Click to expand...

I find the KJV harder to comprehend than most other translations I've seen. For those who think it's more "pure" or whatever, okay, go for it.:roll:
 
<alt>doxygen said:
I find the KJV harder to comprehend than most other translations I've seen. For those who think it's more "pure" or whatever, okay, go for it.:roll:
Click to expand...

Actually, I think it's very poetic, which is why it is written the way it is, to be read aloud to the congregation. But, no serious Christian these days only has one translation, there are dozens to choose from.
 
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