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Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection

seems we have another thing in common. I started competing athletically in the 5th grade ( track and field only at that time.Trained kids how to box as recently as 3 yrs ago....A little more about me and my upbringing..My mom was Southern Baptist,Dad,Southern Methodist,his dad a Deacon at/Meth church and a KKK member.Dad's dad was always pressuring my dad to attend the Meth.more as we mostly attended Baptist..They fought like cats and dogs,and at the age of 11 we switched to Lutheran.I attended Catechism for 2 yrs...Got booted out of my own confirmation for giving 'my answers' to the Pastor and Church elders,as opposed to giving the 'rubber stamp answers they were expecting....to be continued.

I've been a skeptic since I was 6,maybe earlier.By 12 full blown agnostic...Agnostic-atheist by 16..These progressions away what what I consider to bronzed aged mythology were solidified by the age of 20ish...We seem to have differing views about exposing 6 yr olds to religion,and that's OK..different strokes for different folks.I never mentioned my views on religion until they (my 2 kids) approached me,at which point I was totally honest w/them.I told them they should follow their own search for 'truth' as my personal views were personal to me only.They mat do their due dilligence in their own search,and come to a different conclusion...Both are very successful doctors,and both are agnostics. You need to remember that you are a Christian,and you only speak of the virtues of your religion of choice.Personally,I find the Eastern Religions to be more 'comforting' for lack of a better description.Regarding 'critical thinking',I find that to be 'key' to making a rational decision regarding matters of religion.I am of the opinion exposing a 5 yr old to religion (any/all religion) is much too early as it plants seeds in the mind long b4 the mind is prepared to absorb,retain,and assimilate data..On this,I'm sure we disagree,and that too is OK...I hope that addresses your post.If not feel free to ask me anything about anything regarding religious matters..Always enjoy the civil discourse. p.s. one final point....I understand why you use the bile to attempt to prove the bible,but as I'm sure you are well aware,skeptics,when debating religion will always remind the theist that their respective holy texts are 'the claim;,not 'the proof.'...i.e. one can not use a holy text to prove said holy text(s) to be factual,peer reviewable, "truth.'
 
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not sure why son would need atonement if sin is something that makes you feel and then it seems you only need to abdon that kind of action you would remember not to do it because you did not like the results of it

if you were god why would you attack people over things that hurt themselves

if they weer hurting others why would you give people the power to hurt others in the 1st place or wait till long after the harm was done to smite any one ?


Re Jesus' sacrifice & atonement. Sacrifice was God's way of making the ancient people regret their sins. One way of doing that is to sacrifice something very special, therefore they would miss that special/perfect/the best of the flock animal bc of that sin.
Some people, especially the ancient cultures, didn't really give much thought of evil past actions on their part. Ancient cultures were much much unlike the moral (or supposedly moral) attitude we have today.

God loved everyone, even the ones that were evil, so when people did things that hurt themselves, God wanted them to change that so they would love not only others, but themselves also. But many things that people do not only hurt themselves, but hurt others while they hurt themselves.
I don't understand the "attack" reference.

God doesn't give anyone the power to hurt others. The choice to hurt others is something some people freely choose to do. If God limited people to only do 'good things' we would be like robots with no free will or choices. If people want to do bad things, that's something they & we suffer the consequences for.
We live in a fallen world & we experience whatever comes down the line ...... no matter good or bad, bc of sin was introduced by Adam's 1st sin. from that point on, we are a victim of makinds own sins.
 
seems we have another thing in common. I started competing athletically in the 5th grade ( track and field only at that time.Trained kids how to box as recently as 3 yrs ago....A little more about me and my upbringing..My mom was Southern Baptist,Dad,Southern Methodist,his dad a Deacon at/Meth church and a KKK member.Dad's dad was always pressuring my dad to attend the Meth.more as we mostly attended Baptist..They fought like cats and dogs,and at the age of 11 we switched to Lutheran.I attended Catechism for 2 yrs...Got booted out of my own confirmation for giving 'my answers' to the Pastor and Church elders,as opposed to giving the 'rubber stamp answers they were expecting....to be continued.


I'm laughing as I read your last sentence.
My mother would have had a heart attack if I would have done that. I just sorta quit going to church as an early teen.

Later. I've got to get back to tiling my kitchen backsplash. I finished putting the tiles on the wall last night. Had to get the $50/day wet saw back b4 they charged me another day, so it was a long night. My own wet saw wasn't made to cut glass tiles I guess. I didn't find that out until Saturday after chipping 4 consecutive tiles. Saturday wasn't the best tiles day I ever had to say the least. Yesterday was a very long, altho productive day.

Since the glass isn't as porous as ceramic or porcelain, drying time is a bit longer, & another thing I found out ....... after we bought glass tiles. So grouting will have to wait until tomorrow ....... maybe. But, I have to clean the tiny bits of glass shards from the garage where I was cutting, & clean up after myself of 2 days of tiling. Accckkkkkk!
 
I'm laughing as I read your last sentence.
My mother would have had a heart attack if I would have done that. I just sorta quit going to church as an early teen.

Later. I've got to get back to tiling my kitchen backsplash. I finished putting the tiles on the wall last night. Had to get the $50/day wet saw back b4 they charged me another day, so it was a long night. My own wet saw wasn't made to cut glass tiles I guess. I didn't find that out until Saturday after chipping 4 consecutive tiles. Saturday wasn't the best tiles day I ever had to say the least. Yesterday was a very long, altho productive day.

Since the glass isn't as porous as ceramic or porcelain, drying time is a bit longer, & another thing I found out ....... after we bought glass tiles. So grouting will have to wait until tomorrow ....... maybe. But, I have to clean the tiny bits of glass shards from the garage where I was cutting, & clean up after myself of 2 days of tiling. Accckkkkkk!

Mom did freak out and almost fell out of her chair...A timeout was called,and my dad and myself went to pee ..So,there are urinating side by side,and he's begging me 'to play the game' ,or 'take one for the Gipper.'..lest he catch hades from mom for very long time.Dad and I were very close,so I lied to the Church Elders and from then on I was allowed to drink that gawd awful Jewish Mogen-David wine during Eucharist. ...good luck w/your tile job..50 bux a day isn't chump change! :) :) :)
 
Re Jesus' sacrifice & atonement. Sacrifice was God's way of making the ancient people regret their sins. One way of doing that is to sacrifice something very special, therefore they would miss that special/perfect/the best of the flock animal bc of that sin.
Some people, especially the ancient cultures, didn't really give much thought of evil past actions on their part. Ancient cultures were much much unlike the moral (or supposedly moral) attitude we have today.

God loved everyone, even the ones that were evil, so when people did things that hurt themselves, God wanted them to change that so they would love not only others, but themselves also. But many things that people do not only hurt themselves, but hurt others while they hurt themselves.
I don't understand the "attack" reference.

God doesn't give anyone the power to hurt others. The choice to hurt others is something some people freely choose to do. If God limited people to only do 'good things' we would be like robots with no free will or choices. If people want to do bad things, that's something they & we suffer the consequences for.
We live in a fallen world & we experience whatever comes down the line ...... no matter good or bad, bc of sin was introduced by Adam's 1st sin. from that point on, we are a victim of makinds own sins.

i messed up should have said dont know why some one would need atonement if sin is something that makes you feel bad

if your actions don't cause you regret then they are not bad to you haivng god add in an extra cause of regret calls into question whether or not what god labels sin is bad for some one

acton that hurt yourself don't require sacrifice not sure why a loving god would allow people to hurt others without the consent of those hurt

or why such a god would not clearly spell out its preferred morality to every member of the human race directly there's no need to waist generation upon generation on an unguided refinement process for morality people could still disagree but if the gods views made sense and weer shown to be helpful they would be widely adopted

again a god that lets people hurt others without consent is itself evil and bears some blame since harm to others wan not necessary but an option the god chose

attack means the same as punish in this case

and yes god give you the power to hurt others if i swing a rock at your skull and it doesn't bounce off or pas harmlessly though you or stop just before it hits you with the energy of the swing getting transferred harmlessly someplace else but instead i can shove a rock into your head then the god allows that because it built the universe to let me do that without getting so much as your agreement

and if i hurt or kill you you feel pain without the ability to dampen it or switch it of at will takes a long time to heal and you may not heal fully and don't auto resurrect also ebcase the god built the world that way

with universal and power power comes responsibility for the chains of cause and effect you optinaly build into your universe

furthermore your god dosent seem to be championing the cause of other people you hurt punishing until they say justice has been meat instead it seems to smite til it reaches satisfaction for itself

we already have some robot like features we don't get to choose what we desire or dislike and have restrictions on are power to get what we want and avoid what we don't want while other people can force their wills on us

if you don't care what other people consider to be good or bad why is it good to build at best partial robot s;aves you bribe or punish rather then automation

i don't normally consider robotics to be morally inferior to slavery

if you do care about free will and an individual exploration or morality why don't you ensure the sovereignty of people over themselves to begin with so that any harm done to them is of their choosing so they can judge the experience for themselves which would safe gur all the freedoms we currently have and give us more freedom in general while eliminating most if not all evil and mitigating its effects

if god is all powerful then the world is nto fallen its what the god intended nothing forced an all powerful god to change the nature of the world because one its creations ( 2 in this case since they both ate the fruit and adam was not even the 1st to do so) did exactly what their god knew they would do which triggered the events it chose would happen in advance
 
i messed up should have said dont know why some one would need atonement if sin is something that makes you feel bad

if your actions don't cause you regret then they are not bad to you haivng god add in an extra cause of regret calls into question whether or not what god labels sin is bad for some one

acton that hurt yourself don't require sacrifice not sure why a loving god would allow people to hurt others without the consent of those hurt

or why such a god would not clearly spell out its preferred morality to every member of the human race directly there's no need to waist generation upon generation on an unguided refinement process for morality people could still disagree but if the gods views made sense and weer shown to be helpful they would be widely adopted

again a god that lets people hurt others without consent is itself evil and bears some blame since harm to others wan not necessary but an option the god chose

attack means the same as punish in this case

and yes god give you the power to hurt others if i swing a rock at your skull and it doesn't bounce off or pas harmlessly though you or stop just before it hits you with the energy of the swing getting transferred harmlessly someplace else but instead i can shove a rock into your head then the god allows that because it built the universe to let me do that without getting so much as your agreement

and if i hurt or kill you you feel pain without the ability to dampen it or switch it of at will takes a long time to heal and you may not heal fully and don't auto resurrect also ebcase the god built the world that way

with universal and power power comes responsibility for the chains of cause and effect you optinaly build into your universe

furthermore your god dosent seem to be championing the cause of other people you hurt punishing until they say justice has been meat instead it seems to smite til it reaches satisfaction for itself

we already have some robot like features we don't get to choose what we desire or dislike and have restrictions on are power to get what we want and avoid what we don't want while other people can force their wills on us

if you don't care what other people consider to be good or bad why is it good to build at best partial robot s;aves you bribe or punish rather then automation

i don't normally consider robotics to be morally inferior to slavery

if you do care about free will and an individual exploration or morality why don't you ensure the sovereignty of people over themselves to begin with so that any harm done to them is of their choosing so they can judge the experience for themselves which would safe gur all the freedoms we currently have and give us more freedom in general while eliminating most if not all evil and mitigating its effects

if god is all powerful then the world is nto fallen its what the god intended nothing forced an all powerful god to change the nature of the world because one its creations ( 2 in this case since they both ate the fruit and adam was not even the 1st to do so) did exactly what their god knew they would do which triggered the events it chose would happen in advance

Seems to me this whole god thing,regardless of which god one is discussing is one big game of CLUE...hence why I believe men concocted gods up....not vice versa.
 
Seems to me this whole god thing,regardless of which god one is discussing is one big game of CLUE...hence why I believe men concocted gods up....not vice versa.

i figure its a source of explanations hope and threats that people have made up to alter how other feel and behave

ill ask right now if that's not the case

hey god are you real or did people just make you up?

........................................................................

no answer so we can rule out any all powerful beings that want us to know its not just a man made fiction
 
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Mom did freak out and almost fell out of her chair...A timeout was called,and my dad and myself went to pee ..So,there are urinating side by side,and he's begging me 'to play the game' ,or 'take one for the Gipper.'..lest he catch hades from mom for very long time.Dad and I were very close,so I lied to the Church Elders and from then on I was allowed to drink that gawd awful Jewish Mogen-David wine during Eucharist. ...good luck w/your tile job..50 bux a day isn't chump change! :) :) :)


Mogan David wine ...... I haven't heard that name in many years.

Yep, finished my cuts & installed the rest of the backsplash. My wife is in Florida for a week or so for a family birthday type thing. I had to stay home to watch the 2 dogs .... 1 only 7 months. I'd rather stay home than watch my P's & Q's down there anyway. Especially working on a messy home project. I don't have to worry about what time at night I can stop making noise & leave a mess whre I want until finished. Haha.

I sent her a picture of what I thought was the finished project & tolf her I didn't want to use the color she picked out for the grout. She agreed & also said I should extend the tiles to the end of the new counter, which is about 16" past the end of the cabinets. Sooooooo, I had to scrape out the 1/2 tiles I terminated the line of tiles & installed about 15 more tiles. Since I had taken the wet saw back yesterday, I was hesitant to try my smaller wet saw again. I found out that my the saw's previous 'wobble' was caused by the blade not being fit properly on the 1/16" spindle washer. My bad. This time it cut beautifully. Still glad I had that heavy duty saw for the "U" shaped cuts for the electrical outlets tho.

She's staying with her sister down their & driving back with her later on. Sister's husband, who has another house nearby me, are planning on going shooting later this week. He's an ex police chief. I bought a few guns in the past couple of years & really haven't had them out. Plus I bought an SKS rifle that I modified & haven't fired it yet. Geez, I have over 1000 rounds of 7.62 ammo just sitting there. Ever since a friend of mine & I went to a gun shop & I held a Kimber ............... well, just to say since then I've always wanted a Kimber .45 & bought one a bit ago.

Don't know your position on guns, but since I was robbed 2x by gunpoint in Detroit in the late 70's, I do carry & have a concealed permit. I've gone target shooting in the past, but I figure my brother in law can give me some pointers when we go.
 
Mogan David wine ...... I haven't heard that name in many years.

Yep, finished my cuts & installed the rest of the backsplash. My wife is in Florida for a week or so for a family birthday type thing. I had to stay home to watch the 2 dogs .... 1 only 7 months. I'd rather stay home than watch my P's & Q's down there anyway. Especially working on a messy home project. I don't have to worry about what time at night I can stop making noise & leave a mess whre I want until finished. Haha.

I sent her a picture of what I thought was the finished project & tolf her I didn't want to use the color she picked out for the grout. She agreed & also said I should extend the tiles to the end of the new counter, which is about 16" past the end of the cabinets. Sooooooo, I had to scrape out the 1/2 tiles I terminated the line of tiles & installed about 15 more tiles. Since I had taken the wet saw back yesterday, I was hesitant to try my smaller wet saw again. I found out that my the saw's previous 'wobble' was caused by the blade not being fit properly on the 1/16" spindle washer. My bad. This time it cut beautifully. Still glad I had that heavy duty saw for the "U" shaped cuts for the electrical outlets tho.

She's staying with her sister down their & driving back with her later on. Sister's husband, who has another house nearby me, are planning on going shooting later this week. He's an ex police chief. I bought a few guns in the past couple of years & really haven't had them out. Plus I bought an SKS rifle that I modified & haven't fired it yet. Geez, I have over 1000 rounds of 7.62 ammo just sitting there. Ever since a friend of mine & I went to a gun shop & I held a Kimber ............... well, just to say since then I've always wanted a Kimber .45 & bought one a bit ago.

Don't know your position on guns, but since I was robbed 2x by gunpoint in Detroit in the late 70's, I do carry & have a concealed permit. I've gone target shooting in the past, but I figure my brother in law can give me some pointers when we go.

First congrats on on your tile work.Back in 1999,I was helping a friend start his restaraunt.I was helping him deliver food.I was returning from my last delivery of the day,and as soon as I parked,the wife and child of a liquor store which was next door,came running out of the store shouting 'My dad's been shot!!!' I told them to get into our place and lock the doors and called the cops.When I entered the liquor store,The owner,who became a good friend, was lying on his back with a hole in his chest,smoke still exiting the wound.One of the robbers ran out,and the other was brandishing his gun.I dropped and rolled,kicked his feet out from under him,and tussle ensued.He was a very large ,stocky man.I ended up taking a bullet to the lower chin. ( nothing too serious).I had to attend 3 murder trials ( one was granted a re-trial.During that re-trial,the defendant jumped from his seat and tried to bull rush where I was testifying.I jumped into the Judge's area.He was packing a 44 MAG. quite a day indeed..As for guns,I have a rather large antique collection,as well as many other fiearms.....I am of the opinion assault type rifles shouldn't be allowed for public consumption,and I own several myself.
 
i messed up should have said dont know why some one would need atonement if sin is something that makes you feel bad

if your actions don't cause you regret then they are not bad to you haivng god add in an extra cause of regret calls into question whether or not what god labels sin is bad for some one


me: Being self-righteous leads to not regretting ones bad actions. In my case looking back, thinking wht changed my self-righteousness was thinking of Jesus' teachings & sacrifice. I figured is He could have dies for my sins, the least I can do is work on self-righteousness that led to what I considered acting bad. Looking back now, many things I was doing then I could have done differently, which I would have treated pretty much everyone with more compassion & love.

What Jesus/God told us with His 2nd of 2 commandments was to love our neighbor as ourselves. If I wouldn't like someone treating me as I was treating them, I knew I was doing something wrong. But until I started thinking that way, I really didn't think I ws doing anything wrong ......... What I'm telling you, is that I know what youu're talking about ..... not knowing when wrong is actually wrong.




you: acton that hurt yourself don't require sacrifice not sure why a loving god would allow people to hurt others without the consent of those hurt




me: I'm puzzled why you say God allows this to happen after I explained this very thing in my last response ....... re when sin entered the world & we are a product of our own choices. If you aren't clear on that aspect, please ask specific questions OK?




you: or why such a god would not clearly spell out its preferred morality to every member of the human race directly there's no need to waist generation upon generation on an unguided refinement process for morality people could still disagree but if the gods views made sense and weer shown to be helpful they would be widely adopted



me: I think God knew that the ancient people would not accept a huge mandate to change overnight re morality, which was integral in their culture ...... they would reject such a command. He had to give them a bit at a time to see that the small changes in their behavior was good for them, & others.




you: again a god that lets people hurt others without consent is itself evil and bears some blame since harm to others wan not necessary but an option the god chose




me: Why blame God when mankind hurts mankind, not God hurting mankind. This goes back to when sin entered this world & mankind wanted to make all their own choices regardless of what God mandated for them. So, God let man make their own choices.




you: attack means the same as punish in this case



me: Who's attacking or punishing?




you: and yes god give you the power to hurt others if i swing a rock at your skull and it doesn't bounce off or pas harmlessly though you or stop just before it hits you with the energy of the swing getting transferred harmlessly someplace else but instead i can shove a rock into your head then the god allows that because it built the universe to let me do that without getting so much as your agreement




me: But who's choice is it to bash the rock into one's head. Surely not God's. That's free will to make choices that mankind wanted when we didn't want to live by God's rules. So, God let us live as we wanted to ...... doing as we wished t do ....... making all our own choices .... good & bad. It's just the bad consequences we don't like. Thing is, when one demands freedom to make choices, that freedom comes with great responsibilities. You seem to want to blame God when things don't go right,

Yet, we don't want to live by God's rules. You cannot have it both ways. Mankind made the decision to go his own way ..... & God gave those decisions to us, like it or not. We must place the blame on the proper culprit here ...... the person that does the bad thing bc they have made the choice to do bad all on their own. God had nothing to do with their bad choice. If we want only goodness in the world, then we must give up free will bc some people choose to do bad.




you: and if i hurt or kill you you feel pain without the ability to dampen it or switch it of at will takes a long time to heal and you may not heal fully and don't auto resurrect also ebcase the god built the world that way




me: No, God originally built the world for us to live with Him peacefully. Mankind committed sin & sin entered a sinless world. Sin is the product of man, not God. God told mankind to rule over the world right? We in turn screwed that up by ourselves by bringing sin into the world. Now we have to live by the choices we have made.



cont ....
 
me: god's plaan was for a holy world according to His own holiness. When we sinned, the world became unholy & sin entered the previously holy world.
Ya see, we changed the nature of the world by choosing to let sin enter the world. Don't forget that God gave us this world. We chose/choose to sin & therefore hve to live by those sinful choices. We are a product of all of our own choices ..... not God's choices bc He didn't want this world to become sinful ....... mankind chose sin, not God.


As you can see, I put most of my answers inside the bubble bc it's easier for answer each one individually. Hopefully that's cool with you.
 
First congrats on on your tile work.Back in 1999,I was helping a friend start his restaraunt.I was helping him deliver food.I was returning from my last delivery of the day,and as soon as I parked,the wife and child of a liquor store which was next door,came running out of the store shouting 'My dad's been shot!!!' I told them to get into our place and lock the doors and called the cops.When I entered the liquor store,The owner,who became a good friend, was lying on his back with a hole in his chest,smoke still exiting the wound.One of the robbers ran out,and the other was brandishing his gun.I dropped and rolled,kicked his feet out from under him,and tussle ensued.He was a very large ,stocky man.I ended up taking a bullet to the lower chin. ( nothing too serious).I had to attend 3 murder trials ( one was granted a re-trial.During that re-trial,the defendant jumped from his seat and tried to bull rush where I was testifying.I jumped into the Judge's area.He was packing a 44 MAG. quite a day indeed..As for guns,I have a rather large antique collection,as well as many other fiearms.....I am of the opinion assault type rifles shouldn't be allowed for public consumption,and I own several myself.


Well, I gotta tell ya ..... I'm totally impressed with your actions during that robbery. We do things while we are younger w/o thinking in a matter of fact fashion. With all the surgeries on my knees, back & elbow, I wouldn't think of doing something like that now. Geez, I can't even play competitive softball any longer, which I used to live for just a few years ago.

I too, wonder why those type guns are sold to anyone ..... just about. But. since my older son had an AK 47 he bought while in the service, & he found one at a pawn shop at a great price, I bought it thinking soon we won't be able to. The ammo is cheap compared to other caliber rifles, & fun to plink with. I did also buy a .22 semi auto rifle a few years ago & it's even cheaper to shoot. The morning after I bought that one online, the price of that exact gun increased $150.

Now off to paint the front porch trim. As you can tell, I actually enjoy working on projects. This past year, I removed all the popcorn ceiling from my house, & repainted every room 7 updated the electrical receptacles. It's fun for me. couple of years ago, I stripped & put new underlayment & shingles on the house with the help of one guy. That was just b4 my 1st knee replacement. Something I'd never attempt now. I ha a bunch of volunteers say they can work on a 2nd floor roof for the tear off of shingles. Only the one guy, my son & I were willing to actually do it tho. I had no plans to go up there for the tear off, & had to take some serious meds to be able to work on my soon to be replaced knees. I told all those supposed volunteers to go home after than 1st day. It was like, "hey I can work on the ground, & I need the money." yeah right!
 
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